couple of questions after taking my first defensive pistol class

This is a discussion on couple of questions after taking my first defensive pistol class within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hello all I recently took my first pistol class and I noticed something I wanted to ask about. There was about 20 people in the ...

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Thread: couple of questions after taking my first defensive pistol class

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    New Member Array RobFL's Avatar
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    couple of questions after taking my first defensive pistol class

    Hello all

    I recently took my first pistol class and I noticed something I wanted to ask about. There was about 20 people in the class and I noticed that of the 20 there was only 3 or 4 people using a compact pistol such as myself. I noticed a few M&P compacts pistols and a smaller glock, everyone else had full size xd, glock and 1911's as well as a few others I did not recognize but I seeing how this was, I thought, a defensive pistol class I figured there would be more folks using compacts. I thought at first maybe that is all they had, maybe they carry full size guns? So I asked a few of them on a break if that was comfortable to carry etc and to my surprise nearly all of them I asked (about 6) said "this is not what I usually carry, I carry a xxxxxx"?

    Being new to all of this I did not want to make a fool out of myself since in person, rather do it here (lol)-- I just kept the conversation short but I hope someone can enlighten me here?

    I have 4 pistols total. 3 are full size and the 1 compact and since I carry my compact and wanted to get some training with it I decided to shoot that weapon. I also brought a paddle holster and my crossbreed holster. That was the other thing I noticed. A large number of them had OWB holsters like the comp-tac and the blade tech that I recognized. Is there a reason that I am missing or an advantage when training with a full size pistol vs a compact? OR an advantage when taking a class like this to use OWB holsters even if you do not carry that way?


    All my very limited knowledge allows me to think is that the gear was pointless to them they were there to learn the skills or trigger control, sighting, shooting on the move etc, etc and nothing else mattered to them.

    I am only asking for my own knowledge. I surely understand people do what they wish and what makes them comfortable I just wanted to see if I was doing something out of the ordinary or missing something by using my concealed carry gear instead of an outside the waistband set up and/or full size pistol.

    Any replies would be great. Not knocking anyone and I didnt want to think to much about it while there but afterwards I am still a bit confused.

    Thanks

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  3. #2
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    First, welcom to DC!

    Next, good observation. I cannot speak for any of those folks but, here are some items to consider.

    1.) Many folks DO carry full sized handguns. I do.

    2.) Many folks prefer to carry OWB. I do.

    3.) Many folks do not train realistically with their everyday gear. Part of that is that their gear is not conducive to fast repetitions such as you see in most classes.

    4.) Some folks just don't care. They are just there to have "fun".

    Whatever the reason, that is really beside the point. What others use is class has nothing to do with what I use. I train with what I carry and HOW I carry. I don't worry about the others very much.

    Good for you for training with what you carry.
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    "Train as you fight and fight as you train" is a motto that has been around for a long time, a lot of folks do not abide by it though.

    A lot of people who go to classes will use it as a gear testing ground which to a point is not a bad thing but it can get out of hand. Yes these classes teach grip, trigger control, sight alignment and so on which can be transferred to another firearm but if you carry a J frame, IWB holster and go to class and shoot your 1911 from a thigh rig are you gaining anything when it comes to concealed carry? Probably not but you have to look at the individual class.

    A defensive pistol class is teaching you how to fight with a pistol so does the method of carry or equipment used make a whole lot of difference?. Probably not. You are learning a generic, for the lack of a better word, skill which will work with another weapon. Now if the class is named "Defensive Concealed Carry" and you are not using your EDC rig or something similar you are defeating the purpose of the class.

    Just like was discussed in another post here regarding IDPA and a person using their Glock 26. Will they win the match? Probably not, will they gain valuable skills and training with the weapon they carry? Absolutely. Many times folks go to these classes with their full size guns, speed holsters and so on simply because they want to shoot their best which they cannot do with their compact gun from an IWB holster. They to are falling into the "Range Masturbation" game. OOOOHHH looky what I can do with my big gun and quick holster but then they wonder why the suck at using their compact gun, IWB holster and shooting from concealment. It must be the gun of course because I went to a Defensive Pistol Course and shot the X ring out of the target.

    You keep doing what you are doing. You are there to train as you fight, with the gear you will be carrying. Let the others do what they want.

    Just an opinion.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    As RR and Tacman said you should train with your EDC. If you want to have multiple firearms that you rotate through, I think you might be wise to select firearms that have similar handling characteristics e.g. Glock 17 and Glock 26 or Ruger SR9 and SR9C. By selecting guns that work the same way, the muscle memory you develop and rely upon in stressful seconds is leveraged.
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    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    "Train as you fight and fight as you train" is a motto that has been around for a long time, a lot of folks do not abide by it though.


    You keep doing what you are doing. You are there to train as you fight, with the gear you will be carrying. Let the others do what they want.
    Common sense is telling you that you are absolutley correct in your thinking. The above quote says it all. I find that true everytime I go to the range for target/practice shooting with my friends. They bring along their defensive firearms and proceed to aim and take their time as if they are out to win an olympic medal for accuracy. Do not understand this "practice" at all. I go up to line, and quickly acquire the target and shoot. So I am not within that one inch circle but as long as I am in that 2 sq ft or so that represents body mass, I consider it a successful day. When I took my CCWP class, I found similar situation. There is some live fire range time required in SC and many people bring along a 22 instead of their defensive firearm. So now you have a CCWP based on accuracy with a 22; now you walk around with a 45 and have the ability to do so without ever showing any ability to use same.

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    How many rounds did each student expend? I ask because many would much rather put 400 rounds through their Glock 19 or M1911 than through a subcompact Kahr or Kel-tec. Similarly, it is a lot easier to do a hundred draw and fire routines from an OWB than from and IWB. Not necessarily tactically sound, but easier.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

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    Great job in catching that.Anytime I do a Defensive Pistol 1,or a Vehicle Defense 1,I ask that all students bring what they EDC,and even still I'll get the occasional Mall Ninga show up with a ton of gear that has no use.Most just want everone to see how cool they look in their gear,and have the mindset of"Oh I wish my wife/girlfriend could see me now!"If you choose to cheat yourself when you train then you have already lost half the battle.

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    New Member Array RobFL's Avatar
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    Thanks for the welcome!


    Appreciate all the replies. I had a great time and learned A LOT! I look forward to taking more classes. I carry my M&P Compact 9 and shoot it as well as I do my M&P full size 9 - poorly for now....

    Alot of good points I did not think of in these replies you gave so thanks again.

    @ Roadrunner - I am still trying to work out the whole iwb vs owb. I am a larger guy (225) and have yet to find the sweet spot with iwb. Good points. Thanks for the input
    @ Tacman - I appreciate the reply. Makes sense to me. I learned a ton and hopefully in the next month or so I can give IDPA a shot. I would like to be able to practice as much as I can some of the things I learned and will keep learning. I am only there to train/practice, winning means nothing to me -- unless I am actually forced to fire in self defense one day and I hope not.
    @ Mike - you might be right, I believe we shot about 400 rounds. Thanks for the reply
    @ Kelcarry - I was one of those guys who at the range took alot of time with accuracy. Some of the things I learned recently and hope to learn at my next class make my old "practice" days pointless. Ty for the reply.
    @ babarock - currently I own 4 guns, all are M&P. Didn't plan it that way really, it just happened. I love em!
    @ glockrocker - we had one guy who I think was what you called a mall ninja. He was loaded with gear, ready for war. Most of his gear was never used.

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    Distinguished Member Array Stubborn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    "Train as you fight and fight as you train" is a motto that has been around for a long time, a lot of folks do not abide by it though.

    A lot of people who go to classes will use it as a gear testing ground which to a point is not a bad thing but it can get out of hand. Yes these classes teach grip, trigger control, sight alignment and so on which can be transferred to another firearm but if you carry a J frame, IWB holster and go to class and shoot your 1911 from a thigh rig are you gaining anything when it comes to concealed carry? Probably not but you have to look at the individual class.

    A defensive pistol class is teaching you how to fight with a pistol so does the method of carry or equipment used make a whole lot of difference?. Probably not. You are learning a generic, for the lack of a better word, skill which will work with another weapon. Now if the class is named "Defensive Concealed Carry" and you are not using your EDC rig or something similar you are defeating the purpose of the class.

    Just like was discussed in another post here regarding IDPA and a person using their Glock 26. Will they win the match? Probably not, will they gain valuable skills and training with the weapon they carry? Absolutely. Many times folks go to these classes with their full size guns, speed holsters and so on simply because they want to shoot their best which they cannot do with their compact gun from an IWB holster. They to are falling into the "Range Masturbation" game. OOOOHHH looky what I can do with my big gun and quick holster but then they wonder why the suck at using their compact gun, IWB holster and shooting from concealment. It must be the gun of course because I went to a Defensive Pistol Course and shot the X ring out of the target.

    You keep doing what you are doing. You are there to train as you fight, with the gear you will be carrying. Let the others do what they want.

    Just an opinion.
    "tacman" hit the nail on the head, just about sums it up.
    "Mike1956" brings up a great point also, if your EDC is a sub-compact, 300-400 rounds in a day would be torture.
    A good friend of mine carries a Kahr in .40 S&W, I asked him about it, he said "oh, it's not fun to shoot". Makes me wonder, if it's not fun or maybe even painful...how much would you practice with it???

    Seems to me if you're carrying a weapon you don't practice with often, you're carrying a recipe for disaster.
    Just my 2 cent opinion.

    Oh...and welcome from the Tampa Bay area. You sound like you're equipped with above average common sense, You should fit in well here.
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    If it isn't fun to shoot, reliable, accurate, easy to accessorize and comfortable to carry, what good is it in an edc capacity?
    DRM likes this.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

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    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Here's my experience from the few people i know who have taken the training class required for Texas CHL. First of all, Texas requires you to qualify not only on paper, but you have to demonstrate a certain level of accuracy. The gun must also be at least a .32 caliber. One person I know carries a .22 most of the time so he couldn't use that to qualify with. Other people I know wanted to carry very small sub-compact guns. But they were afraid they might not pass the test with that gun, so they wanted to use a more accurate gun with a longer barrel. While I could have passed the test with any of my guns (except for my .22 pistols, for obvious reasons) I certainly chose to qualify with my Glock 19. I've taken the test 4 times now and each time I've used the Glock. I don't always carry the Glock, but I do most of the time. But even if I didn't carry the Glock, I'd still use it to qualify because I know I'll get the highest score.
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato

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    Member Array mjblat's Avatar
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    In past classes that I have taken it was required that students use a OWB holster. It was a safety issue and I see the point. We had ten people drawing and shooting at the same time and I cant imagine the danger with ten people drawing from IWB from different spots and with having to move clothing. I can see it going bad quickly. There is no way to tell how experienced the students are and everyones safety should be the first priority. Just my 2 cents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    If it isn't fun to shoot, reliable, accurate, easy to accessorize and comfortable to carry, what good is it in an edc capacity?
    I don't want to hijack the thread so I will make this brief. The problem that I see is some folks put the emphasis on "comfortable to carry"above all other factors. My personal opinion is that thinking is completely backwards.
    DRM likes this.
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    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    If it isn't fun to shoot, reliable, accurate, easy to accessorize and comfortable to carry, what good is it in an edc capacity?
    MIke---ua need to wave a flag or something to let people know, especially new shooters and new members,

    when you are floating a statement of sarcastic nature.


    this one, for instance, is dangerously close to the truth
    Be aware, be deliberate in your actions and be accurate.
    -------------------
    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
    to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them

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    Member Array yale's Avatar
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    Well, since I Open Carry a Ruger P89 in a Uncle Mikes Pro3 duty holster that's what I plan on using for classes or training. It's what i wiil be using tommorrow when I take a Rangemaster class. So haveing a compact or concealable handgun isn't that big of an issue with me.
    Steve
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