A quote that really made me think

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Well put OP ;
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

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  3. #17
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    QK you are correct. An amateur can tattoo a professional at any given moment, it is all in the luck of the draw. I just like having the deck stacked in my favor.

    I agree totally with the scenarios you posted in those cases any gun, any training beats none at all. Yes in a perfect world gun owners would train to use what they carry but we do not live in a perfect world. As I have stated before a firearm is a tool and the shooter is the craftsman but to me we, as a culture, are losing that craft.

    Everything nowadays is so sugar coated, lets not offend, don't tell them that type society that many no longer have the aggression needed to complete the task in a SD situation. I am in no way saying we need a race of killer, zombie, robotic attitudes but the act of carrying a firearm is for one purpose and one purpose only to defend yourself or loved ones which can include the taking of another life. We tell our kids "Don't worry son you can be anything you want to be in life if you just try". Well I hate to say it that is not going to happen.

    My 16 year old son is 6'2" likes sports wants to play college ball, but does not practice, has issues in school and has decided that now he wants to be the next gangster rapper in our state. I had to inform him the other day he will not be an NBA all star, cannot go to college if he does not finish high school, and I know of only two white rappers and both have/had something he doesn't have, talent.

    We have got to quit sugar coating the topic of carrying a weapon and self defense. It is a true life and death issue. Yes there will be new guys who have questions, ask them, and they will be answered but answer them stressing to them the importance of what endeavor they are taking on. The simple fact is some folks do not need to be carrying a firearm without further training be it their constitutional right or not face facts.

    Anyways enough of my rant time for PT. I guess I am getting old and grumpy over here but please read what everyone has posted, learn from it and take the act of carrying seriously simply because it is.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  4. #18
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Guns are like anything else, you need to train with them to become good with them. I agree with your statement to stop sugar coating what we are doing. For new people to carrying, they need to realize the severity of what they are doing..

  5. #19
    OD*
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    Another excellent Cooperism.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

    "There is very little new, and the forgotten is constantly being rediscovered."
    ~ Tiger McKee

  6. #20
    Member Array JohnWFD's Avatar
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    Great practical advice for a very serious subject. Thanks!
    "A free people ought to be armed." - George Washington

  7. #21
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    A third-rate gun and first-rate man - this sound like an oxymoron to me. Personally, I favor this quote; "Good guns are not cheap and cheap guns are not good." First-rate men value reliability and function in such an important tool as a gun. I think anyone would be truly hard pressed to find the first-rate man and third-rate gun combination except in the most extreme of unusual circumstances. I like the gist of your post and your explanation; but, I don't like the quote itself.

    As to effective training - there is no substitute.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array BigJon10125's Avatar
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    Well said!
    BigJon


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  9. #23
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasbo00 View Post
    A third-rate gun and first-rate man - this sound like an oxymoron to me. Personally, I favor this quote; "Good guns are not cheap and cheap guns are not good." First-rate men value reliability and function in such an important tool as a gun. I think anyone would be truly hard pressed to find the first-rate man and third-rate gun combination except in the most extreme of unusual circumstances. I like the gist of your post and your explanation; but, I don't like the quote itself.

    As to effective training - there is no substitute.
    I see the quote meaning that it is not the caliber of the weapon (gun or otherwise) but is the caliber of the man. The right man is more deadly with what he can find at hand than most with the best weapon money can buy.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  10. #24
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    Chasbo good gun, bad gun, cheap gun, expensive gun it makes no difference it is the person pulling the trigger that makes all the difference.

    Yes reliability and function are important but not paramount. The first rate man will make it work no matter what. I realize that I live and work in a different enviroment but first rate men are a lot more common than you think.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  11. #25
    Member Array chasbo00's Avatar
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    Any responsible person who carries a gun will learn how to use it reasonably well. A first rate person who carries a gun will have learned to use it exceptionally well - that's why they get the "first rate" label of distinction. And first rate people who carry guns don't choose to carry second rate or especially third rate guns.

  12. #26
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    Great thread.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  13. #27
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    One of the points I am trying to make is at what level of responsible gun ownership does more training fit into? Many have bought the gun, went to CCW class and passed, purchased a gun safe, carry it daily or most of the time and may go to the range once every couple of months.
    They are responsible gun owners but are far from being able to use the weapon reasonably well.
    These same people among others limit themselves when they do train to short distance, no time limits, no movement, reduced power loads because recoil is to much or anything else real world that in my book does not constitute operating the weapon reasonably well, but that is just me I have a higher standard.

    A basic level shooter in my world can clear all types of malfunctions, has good fundementals, can load and reload with hestitation or having to think about it and perform a variety of other shooting related skills that everyone should have.

    The point being you dont always get a choice of a first rate or third rate gun, that is where the shooter makes all the difference. Sure given the choice I will choose the best possible weapon available, but if I am issued or forced to use a third rate gun I bet I still come out on top.

    If you ever get the chance shoot in a match that has a battlefield pickup stage. There is no telling what type of weapon you will get but the first rate individual will make it work and accomplish the mission the third rate person will miss and then blame the gun. As I have stated before the gun is merely a tool and you are the craftsman responsible to make it work.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  14. #28
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    One of the points I am trying to make is at what level of responsible gun ownership does more training fit into? Many have bought the gun, went to CCW class and passed, purchased a gun safe, carry it daily or most of the time and may go to the range once every couple of months.
    They are responsible gun owners but are far from being able to use the weapon reasonably well.
    These same people among others limit themselves when they do train to short distance, no time limits, no movement, reduced power loads because recoil is to much or anything else real world that in my book does not constitute operating the weapon reasonably well, but that is just me I have a higher standard.

    A basic level shooter in my world can clear all types of malfunctions, has good fundementals, can load and reload with hestitation or having to think about it and perform a variety of other shooting related skills that everyone should have.

    The point being you dont always get a choice of a first rate or third rate gun, that is where the shooter makes all the difference. Sure given the choice I will choose the best possible weapon available, but if I am issued or forced to use a third rate gun I bet I still come out on top.

    If you ever get the chance shoot in a match that has a battlefield pickup stage. There is no telling what type of weapon you will get but the first rate individual will make it work and accomplish the mission the third rate person will miss and then blame the gun. As I have stated before the gun is merely a tool and you are the craftsman responsible to make it work.
    Some will train to the level you describe. Others will not. I think its the mindset that needs attention more than the skill set. If that makes any sense. Some people believe that after their CCW course that they are ready. Its hard to get thru to them, most instructors do not teach further training. They cattle them in and cattle them out.

    Personally I take the craft very serious, and it shows in my training, and my level of training. I am to the point where Im trying to fail, just to get better. I know my mindset is right and the skill set is right, but it can always get better. IMO, when you think you are good enough, thats when things can go wrong. We are never good enough, and should continue up the ladder....That includes LE, military and civilians...
    tacman605 and First Sgt like this.

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array 40Bob's Avatar
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    Great post!

    I have been telling my guys for years that once they achieve a certain level, the weapon of choice is largely insignificant.

  16. #30
    Senior Member Array tclance's Avatar
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    Excellent Makes you think about where you stand. I am comfortable with my skills for the level that im personally at, but also smart enough to know that More training is a good thing.

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