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Speed vs Accuracy: which is more important to you when Training

9K views 47 replies 30 participants last post by  Pistology 
#1 ·
Speed and accuracy tend to be two conflicting ends on a pendulum; Go too fast and miss your target, go too slow and strike a bulls eye. What is more important to you as it pertains to defensive training and why?

I will start off by saying I now tend to focus on speed more than accuracy. I used to shoot for groups until I had a good solid base in the fundamentals, then started shooting in local IPSC matches, which opened my eyes to the dramatic "need for speed". I know competition is NOT combat, but it is a great way to train your mind and body for an all out "run and gun" and to really see how fast AND accurate a human being is capable of. There are IPSC shooters who absolutely shoot circles around me, I'm just happy to learn from them and soak up as much knowledge as possible.

When considering a defensive scenario we also have to take into account almost all CCW incidents will start off with us being in reaction mode; I.e. the threat has already made the first move, weapon is already out and your already behind the power curve.

So fellow DCers, what are your thoughts?
 
#3 ·
My vote is speed with combat accuracy, but before that in a actual gunfight not getting hit would be my first thoughts. If you don't think move and move first you most likely will lose in a gunfight. So you shoot him .5 second before he shoots you sorry you are both dead.
 
#8 ·
You can never be fast enough or accurate enough, and practice will only improve both :smile: I would say this: be as fast as you can while still being able to double tap center mass. Pinpoint accuracy has nothing to do with your effective return in a gun fight. Speed is nothing without accuracy, but accuracy doesnt mean squat if you need to work on your breathing for 45 seconds before the trigger squeeze.
 
#10 ·
The balance of both. To fast you miss, to slow you loose. Just right, they loose
 
#15 ·
^ This :hand10:, and....

The theory is to keep pushing yourself until you fail, then go back and work yourself until you master your new level and then push yourself until you fail again. But be accurate and do it quickly.
^ That. :hand10:

I can always improve. I can always be faster. I can always be more accurate. There is no end to this path.

If you're making every shot at the speed and accuracy you envisioned in your dreams, and you've got a smirk on your face, then you're not training hard enough. Train until you start flying apart.

I was rather down on myself two weekends ago, in Bob Vogel's class, when I missed 2 out of 10 head shots at 15 yards, when pressed to go as fast as I could possibly go. As we reviewed my hits, he noticed that I was visibly disappointed, and he just said "don't be discouraged - you just flew apart a little there, and that's what you WANT to see, in training, so you know that you've pushed right up to and even beyond your failure point." Even when Bob was doing demos, he made mistakes. Why? Because he was pushing to be faster, to be better.

I can't improve without first failing.

I can always go faster. I can always shoot more accurately. I can always be a better shooter.

But, of-course, like sgb said, you can be Wyatt Earp and Wild Bill all rolled into one, and still suffer the Any Given Sunday syndrome; that's just reality, right there. :aargh4: Nevertheless, that's not going to stop me from doing my honest dues, in hopes that I will be just that much faster than the bad-guys. :smile:
 
#11 ·
As others have said, there is a balance and need for both. There also may be a time when you do need to make an exceptional and very accurate shot (let's say a head shot in a crowded mall or a head shot on someone holding your child hostage). At which point you should never be in a hurry to miss. Or.. let's say, your bad guy in behind cover and the only thing sticking out is his foot. Hey, if it's available... shoot it! But that might require accuracy you are not accustomed to if all you EVER do is shoot for combat accuracy as fast as you can. There does need to be a little bit of pin-point accuracy from time to time and a confidence in your ability to make accurate shots on demand under stress... the faster you can do that, the better.

A lot of schools do drills where you shoot and a target for combat accuracy and just keep backing up 2-3 yards at a time until you miss and then you know where you need to start working. Watch your times. How fast can you make those combat hits up close and how many seconds slower is it as you back up? Can you speed up? Can you work on accuracy alone.

The theory is to keep pushing yourself until you fail, then go back and work yourself until you master your new level and then push yourself until you fail again. But be accurate and do it quickly.
 
#12 ·
There has to be a balance of course but I tend to go more for accuracy. I see guys at the range who will do an ammo dump and have hits all over their targets and even though I'm not counting all their shots, it's obvious they are way off with many and also completely missing the target. I can fire quickly and be accurate but I'd focus more on the accuracy.
 
#14 ·
Speed comes first. How fast one can process whats going on, how fast one reacts, how fast one can draw...that all accounts for nothing if you can't hit the broad side of a barn. Incorporate both in your training.
 
#43 ·
I couldn't disagree more except in the context of what Eagleks says.

Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything.
Wyatt Earp
Here's a man who knows from what he speaks.

[Y]ou can be Wyatt Earp and Wild Bill all rolled into one, and still suffer the Any Given Sunday syndrome; that's just reality, right there. :aargh4: Nevertheless, that's not going to stop me from doing my honest dues, in hopes that I will be just that much faster than the bad-guys. :smile:
Wild Bill's assassination came on a Wednesday and had more to do with his breaking his habit of sitting with his back to the wall than with speed or accuracy.

Accuracy takes precedence over speed. Shot placement wins gunfights.
Speed is derived from economy of motion, not moving faster.
Speed is a natural by-product of practice.
Shoot one shot at a time. Each one is the most important.
Excellent advice.

So far, I think First Sgt has said it best, if perhaps a bit too succinctly. Allow me to see if I can expand on his comments.

Several of you have posted answers that address how to evaluate your performance by pushing to the point of failure.
That is a good training technique for evaluation but does not address how or what to train. The question "Speed vs Accuracy: which is more important to you when Training", is best answered by looking at the hierarchy of training goals: 1st. Accuracy, 2nd. Speed, 3rd. Power. This is true of both armed and unarmed combat.

Consider: First Sgt said, "Speed is a natural by-product of practice."

I would only amend this to say proper practice. What we do is create a conditioned response wherein we cut the need to think out of the loop. The body then executes the trained movements while the brain continues to assess the situation. If we have trained perfectly with exacting precision, each move will be smooth and efficient. Smooth and efficient leads to fast.

If you are not accurate enough you are dead. Of course the same is true of speed. So, how accurate do you have to be and how fast do you have to be. Accurate enough to hit your target and fast enough to do it before your opponent.

There is one other thing here. What do we mean by accuracy. There is accuracy on the target, and then there is the accuracy of your movements which enable the accurate targeting. This is what I mean by first be accurate: Proper clearing of the cover garment; proper grip on the weapon; proper movement through the phases of presentation; proper targeting; and proper trigger press.

Power: Only when you have mastered the first two should you try to put more power into the strike. In this case the equivalent would be going to a larger caliber or magnum load.

I could go on, but you get the idea: Accuracy first. The speed will come naturally with the proper practice of accuracy.
Great post, as usual, Hoganbeg. PhoenixTS, you say, says it more succinctly. SpencerB says it most succinctly, "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast," a quote attributed to great and legendary fighters.

Not only this, but, as others have said, shooting on the move is critical.

Phoenix Tactical can expect a visit from this local, soon.
 
#16 ·
Accuracy takes precedence over speed. Shot placement wins gunfights.
Speed is derived from economy of motion, not moving faster.
Speed is a natural by-product of practice.
Shoot one shot at a time. Each one is the most important.
 
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#17 ·
Great replies, especially from those who have taken professional training courses (it's obvious just from your posts). I've been pushing my absolute limits on balancing speed and accuracy lately and it has been paying off. Do many of you shoot with a shot timer? I think I never concentrated on speed as much until I finally sucked it up and bought one. Now with quantifiable data to compare myself to I'm always striving to get faster while maintaining my hits. If you all don't shoot with a shot timer, how do you judge how fast/ slow your going?
 
#20 ·
My practice without a timer and how I know the speed, I practice movement with my draw and shot I'm not just taking a step but busting off the X. For shot placement a sheet of paper folded length way is a good gage, place it COM on target giving you about a 4X12" target. First shot should be in that target, I want that all to happen in the first step about 1 sec. As you keep moving to the side and around the target your COM will move, in a actual gunfight your target is 3D so COM is not always in the front like with the flat sheet of paper target.

Most of my practice time is done with movement and mostly done point shooting but I do do some sight shooting trying for the one hole shot placement. Most of this is done from 10 yds and back, while the point shooting is done 7 yds and in.

This is what I've come to find covers what I feel to be my needs.
 
#18 ·
If you are trying to hit a "bullseye" in a SD situation, you've already taken the wrong approach. SD shooting is not target shooting. They are different , for different needs. Fastest speed with the maximum effectiveness, for the situation. There are some situations where taking good aim, is more important..... been in both types of situations and used both approaches.

SD .. is not black and white, and there is no "one way" for doing everything. All situations are different. "adjust and adapt".
 
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#21 ·
Those are some great posts, First Sgt, Eagleks, and Hoganbeg.

John123, I currently do not have a shot timer - I am planning to begin competing either later this year or next spring, and by that time, I definitely will have one. Currently, I rely on the push and the timer of my instructors/trainers. :smile: As with you, it wasn't until I had gone to one of my local schools, one in which the instructor brought the timer to-play, that I realized that this is something that really needs to be quantified.

But as with the members above, what's important to remember is that speed needs to be put into context. There's ways to be fast, fast so that you will do well in a competition atmosphere, based on competition rules and regulations - but that may or may not be what you would want to do in the real world. Just as Eagleks said:

SD .. is not black and white, and there is no "one way" for doing everything. All situations are different. "adjust and adapt".
^ you'll also need to adapt your training to best-fit your defensive goals. :smile: Like Bill MO, I also try to train to move (obviously, this isn't allowed in some contexts of range shooting, or in the more beginner-level classes, etc.), and that movement does cause us to lose some time, as compared to, say, training to be absolutely fast to that first hit without moving, which is what may matter more in another context (i.e. certain gun-gaming).

To me, it's more important to quantify my time rather than to set a certain benchmark, because it always gives me something to work to better, to improve. It's really a never-ending road, I can always be faster, I can always be more accurate.

Too many posts to "Like" in this thread!!!!!
 
#19 ·
So far, I think First Sgt has said it best, if perhaps a bit too succinctly. Allow me to see if I can expand on his comments.

Several of you have posted answers that address how to evaluate your performance by pushing to the point of failure.
That is a good training technique for evaluation but does not address how or what to train. The question "Speed vs Accuracy: which is more important to you when Training", is best answered by looking at the hierarchy of training goals: 1st. Accuracy, 2nd. Speed, 3rd. Power. This is true of both armed and unarmed combat.

Consider: First Sgt said, "Speed is a natural by-product of practice."

I would only amend this to say proper practice. What we do is create a conditioned response wherein we cut the need to think out of the loop. The body then executes the trained movements while the brain continues to assess the situation. If we have trained perfectly with exacting precision, each move will be smooth and efficient. Smooth and efficient leads to fast.

If you are not accurate enough you are dead. Of course the same is true of speed. So, how accurate do you have to be and how fast do you have to be. Accurate enough to hit your target and fast enough to do it before your opponent.

There is one other thing here. What do we mean by accuracy. There is accuracy on the target, and then there is the accuracy of your movements which enable the accurate targeting. This is what I mean by first be accurate: Proper clearing of the cover garment; proper grip on the weapon; proper movement through the phases of presentation; proper targeting; and proper trigger press.

Power: Only when you have mastered the first two should you try to put more power into the strike. In this case the equivalent would be going to a larger caliber or magnum load.

I could go on, but you get the idea: Accuracy first. The speed will come naturally with the proper practice of accuracy.
 
#22 ·
I actually think that USPSA/IPSC does a pretty good job of requiring a balance of speed and accuracy, and I am comfortable that the skills I have developed through competition reflect the balance of those performance metrics that I, personally, want to have.

The "A" Zone on a USPSA target is a pretty good approximation of the center-of-mass/spine/CNS area of the torso. Most USPSA competitors will tell you that you should try to go at a speed where you are getting about 90% of the total hits available on a stage. That means on two targets taking two shots each, I need to get three of those shots in the "A" zone and the fourth shot still on the central part of the torso (the "C") zone if I am shooting 9mm. If I am shooting a .40S&W or .45ACP, that measure relaxes a little---one "A" zone on each target and the other shot at least a "C". If you are going so fast you are getting more than one or two "D" hits in a match (peripheral torso hits) or, worse yet, any misses, your score is going to suffer.

That feels like a pretty good benchmark to me. The other thing that competition shooting has taught me is that the easiest target in the world can also be the easiest one to miss completely. As soon as your brain goes, "I can't miss that. I don't even need to aim!" you are screwed. :biggrin2:

Understand that in the real world if you are really using cover (as opposed to IDPA-style pretend cover) and really moving hard in order not to get shot yourself, the speed goes down; still, the pistol match is as good a place as any to baseline your skills and bring the accuracy up to the level that you demand at the speed you are comfortable going.
 
#23 ·
^ And that is precisely some of the reasons why I want to get into USPSA/IDPA. :smile:

I was lucky to be able to get in on a small class with Bob Vogel a couple of weekends ago - it was a basic "Defensive Handgun" class, but it did have a slight gaming bend to it, and what I experienced really set me off on the competition path.

As a beginner to all of this, I had been warned by some that I could potentially pick up some bad habits in gaming. Today, as a more experienced shooter, I do see that particular caution is not without merit. However, at the same time, I can also well see that competition will provide a nurturing and friendly atmosphere where I will be driven to excel, as well as will expose me to more "stressed shooting," and allow me to continue to develop both my manipulation as well as marksmanship skills. I now understand that competition gun-gaming, when approached in the right context, can well be an excellent compliment to "defensive" firearms training.
 
#27 ·
What does Larry Vickers say? "Speed is fine--accuracy is final"?
The originator of that quote was the late, great William Henry "Bill" Jordan (1911–1997). He was an American lawman, United States Marine, and author. See here..........
Bill Jordan
 
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#29 ·
Very well put. I must work on being more succinct in my posts!
 
#31 ·
Speed is subjective to distance. Do not count on the encounter being close. The BG didnt get the memo on how things were going to go down....
 
#33 ·
Best advice I can give you is get to one of these classes. You will come away from the 2 day class amazed at what you can do with a gun. Other than taking the class read all you can that Roger Phillips writes about the subject. He has a book and DVD, while they are both good the class is the best and fastest way to learn the art of point shooting.

Suarez International Point Shooting Progressions
 
#34 ·
I believe the first vid is of Jerry Miculek and, at 4:30 min, another guy named Travis Tomasie. Yes, they're very fast (and accurate), but everything that has been said about smooth, efficiency of motion can be seen in (all of) these vids.

World's Fastest Everything
 
#35 ·
Here is an easy-to-do drill I've been working on. Since it uses a fixed 5-second par time, a shot timer is not needed - someone can merely call out the start and stop times. A low ready start is used because several ranges don't allow working from a holster. The drill is mainly designed to measure how well you can control your carry gun while shooting rapidly, but it also measures combat accuracy at a minimum speed of less than one second per shot. Most who have tried it with their carry guns state that it's not as easy as they thought it would be.


The Defensive Handgun Control Drill

Starting position is the low ready (pistol loaded and pointed down at 45 degree angle, safety off, trigger finger outside trigger guard)
Fire 5 rounds
Within 5 seconds
From a distance of 3, 7 or 15 yards
At an 8.5 x 11 inch sheet of paper
Repeat 3 times (15 rounds total)

Performance levels:

Advanced – From 15 yds, all 15 rds on paper, all runs 5 sec or less
Intermediate – From 7 yds, all 15 rds on paper, all runs 5 sec or less
Basic – From 3 yds, all 15 rds on paper, all runs 5 sec or less
 
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