Minimum standards

This is a discussion on Minimum standards within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by RevolvingMag RoarRunner, Suntzu, Retsupt, I understand what you're saying- you should be able to defend yourself- and completely agree. I think, and ...

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 79
Like Tree18Likes

Thread: Minimum standards

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    TX/NH
    Posts
    5,811
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolvingMag View Post
    RoarRunner, Suntzu, Retsupt, I understand what you're saying- you should be able to defend yourself- and completely agree.

    I think, and I may very well be wrong, that Tacman was talking about personal standards; the standards you hold yourself to.
    That is what I am saying also. No government standards but a guideline of things one SHOULD be proficient in. It is up to the individual to set their own comfort level. Which I think a lot set way too low. But, it is up to them in the end

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #17
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Lansing Mi
    Posts
    6,960
    @revolving mag you are correct, he was talking about personal standards.

    In addition to the standards listing by Tacman, I would like to add to your list movement, as well as manipulations from varying positions. IE: Urban prone, prone, being on your back. Adding these in is a personal standard for me. I would recommend that everyone do them. Its just adding to your tool box.

    Good topic Tacman....

    Edit: I forgot to add retention shooting and point shooting.

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array Sig35seven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,115
    Safe gun handling is paramount and being able to shoot it at an intended target. I really don't care how fast you can draw your weapon or how many rounds you can shoot in a short period of time. If your slow, that's your problem.

    I wouldn't want to be at the range the day some of these people are practicing taking their guns in and out of the holster with live ammo. This puts the gun at angles other than down range combined with inexperience and you may have unforeseen problems.

    There was an older woman getting her CC permit the day I got mine. She couldn't hit a human target from the distance of 5 yards. She had shaky hands and flinched big time.The instructors couldn't figure out where the bullets were going. They finally gave up and passed her through. It didn't matter if she could hit the broad side of a barn.
    "Confidence is food for the wise man but liquor for the fool"

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array rammerjammer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Posts
    3,362
    I agree with most of the suggestions for weapon proficiency. I don't really have anything to add in those respects that hasn't already been repeated or things that simply shouldn't be government mandated.

    But, people also need to mentally train themselves for when it is and possibly more importantly when it is not proper to use their gun in self defense. Each carrier has to mentally prepare themselves to know when it is best to stay out of a situation or when to get invovled. Some other member had a long post about when to intervene or not and their basic premise was do not intervene unless what you are seeing is such an obvious affront to humanitarian values that you must intervene.

    There are many posters, especially new members who favor interventions in whatever scenario you can come up with because "they're not cowards" or "they just want to help." Yet they haven't thought about all the repurcussions that could happen from a justified shoot let alone what could happen in a situation in which they should never have intervened.

    There is no way to mandate a mindset but anybody who carries a gun should think out what their possible reactions may be in a defensive situation. Of course you can't think through all the problems that one may face. But they should at least have a loose game plan for what they are and are not willing to do.
    tacman605 and Hoganbeg like this.
    "Was there no end to the conspiracy of irrational prejudice against Red Ryder and his peacemaker?"

    Revolvers, “more elegant weapons for a more civilized age.”

  6. #20
    VIP Member
    Array tacman605's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arkansas/On the X in Afghanistan
    Posts
    3,031
    Not what is required by the state or regulating agency, not talking about mandated training or further regulations or it is their God given right to carry with no standards, simply what you feel someone should know by your standards or by the standards of common sense before they carry their firearm for self defense.

    No offense to anyone here but damn is there something in the above sentences that has a hidden meaning, is unclear or otherwise confusing? Maybe the standard for comprehension is set to high.
    shockwave likes this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    TX/NH
    Posts
    5,811
    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Not what is required by the state or regulating agency, not talking about mandated training or further regulations or it is their God given right to carry with no standards, simply what you feel someone should know by your standards or by the standards of common sense before they carry their firearm for self defense.

    No offense to anyone here but damn is there something in the above sentences that has a hidden meaning, is unclear or otherwise confusing? Maybe the standard for comprehension is set to high.
    Full moon man LOL! Look outside tonight around 1130 PM EST. Moon is close. I have had similiar comprehension problems today with folks

  8. #22
    VIP Member
    Array tacman605's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arkansas/On the X in Afghanistan
    Posts
    3,031
    Yeah I read that in another topic. I guess I need to check the computer to make sure I am not posting in Swedish.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    okla
    Posts
    4,298
    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I don't think anyone here wants the government to set a standard. Change standard to recomendation then :)
    This is what some folks refuse to understand about government regulations. Some are well intentioned while others are simply intended to stop the activity.

    In Oklahoma years ago when the citizens forced the State to allow Liquor by the drink the State set up a committee to create the rules and regulations for it. They assigned mostly legislators who where against it to create those regulations in an attempt to kill it after the fact. Made it very difficult for a number of years. They did the very same thing when Parimutuel horse racing was forced on them by wide spread citizen support. Setting up rules to make sure the average citizen could not partake of the activity.

    Why would I believe that if the Government is allowed to set up qualifications that citizens must meet in order to exercise their rights that anyone would qualify?

    Michael
    Last edited by mlr1m; May 5th, 2012 at 06:20 PM. Reason: I made an oopsie

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Florence, SC
    Posts
    7,967
    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Not what is required by the state or regulating agency, not talking about mandated training or further regulations or it is their God given right to carry with no standards, simply what you feel someone should know by your standards or by the standards of common sense before they carry their firearm for self defense.

    No offense to anyone here but damn is there something in the above sentences that has a hidden meaning, is unclear or otherwise confusing? Maybe the standard for comprehension is set to high.
    Sven here, the snow has finally melted in my Swedish village and this allowed my keyboard to thaw, inorder that I might answer your question(s)...Uh...darn...I forget what I wanted to say...

    I think those of us, serious about carrying and our preparations for carrying, will most probably agree on virtually all the suggestions as to PERSONAL standards, and in many cases even expand on those PERSONAL standards. With that being said, those same folks that have established certain PERSONAL standards would like to see others who carry have some or all of those same standards as well. With that being said, how do us folks that have these higher standards, allow (in our minds) for perhaps physically handicapped carriers that are unable to meet this LIST, or perhaps folks that are physically weaker (male and female), or perhaps that have sight handicaps, etc etc. I think there is a problem in having "overall" expectations. I understand our desire to have a WISH LIST so that everyone stands a better chance at survival if they encounter a "self defense" situation, but I fear we are only "kicking a dead dog"....

    Everyone knows how I most always preach "train Train TRAIN" in any of my posts, so you know where I stand...Please don't let my comments above sway you otherwise....LOL....Tacman605, I am on board with ya Sir...JMO
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  11. #25
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Northeast Alabama
    Posts
    716
    Quote Originally Posted by Sig35seven View Post
    Safe gun handling is paramount and being able to shoot it at an intended target. I really don't care how fast you can draw your weapon or how many rounds you can shoot in a short period of time. If your slow, that's your problem.

    I wouldn't want to be at the range the day some of these people are practicing taking their guns in and out of the holster with live ammo. This puts the gun at angles other than down range combined with inexperience and you may have unforeseen problems.

    There was an older woman getting her CC permit the day I got mine. She couldn't hit a human target from the distance of 5 yards. She had shaky hands and flinched big time.The instructors couldn't figure out where the bullets were going. They finally gave up and passed her through. It didn't matter if she could hit the broad side of a barn.
    And yet, in real life, if these people have to shoot to defend themselves, you rarely hear about misses killing the neighbors...

  12. #26
    Member Array alafan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    132
    I am lucky to have 2 good friends. 1 is a ex Alabama state trooper and 1 is a retired sniper. These 2 gentleman kinda took me under there wings. Like having 2 dads.

  13. #27
    VIP Member
    Array tacman605's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arkansas/On the X in Afghanistan
    Posts
    3,031
    Thank goodness the snow melted Sven maybe now we can go fiording in the fiord.

    Again guys as I stated this has nothing to do with the Government setting anything. You, yourself personally not a government anything.

    In response to an earlier post in reference to the wife seeking protection from here ex, or the elderly woman needing protection. In these cases I am not saying deny them anything, require them to have nothing a gun is a gun in these cases if they need it they have it. Would it be great if someone showed them how to use it in a more proficient manner? Yes of course but it is not required.

    There are different levels, for the lack of a better word, of gun owners/carriers. Some own a gun and keep it in the house never carry it, others carry sometimes or at least have it in their car. Many carry the gun everyday but it is simply stuck in their pocket and some carry the gun, ammo, flashlight and so on. We are all different.

    Is there one mimimum/personal/wish list of things they should be able to do that fits everyone? No of course not. Could there be? Possibly, but as has been stated on here before many don't even want to do that. They have the gun, hence they are safe.

    This whole thing is in reference to your personal opinion of what you consider the minimum/personal/wish list of standards nothing else.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  14. #28
    Member Array jasgo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    213
    I think it has to be the gun owner's responsibility to attain the proper shooting skills and knowledge to fit their purpose of gun ownership. If the government is allowed to set standards, it could become a tool to restrict 2nd amendment rights. I would be for severe liability laws (i.e. accidental shootings, child endangerment, used by another in a crime, etc) to establish some ownership responsibilities in gun handling.

    It is a little scary when amateurs who don't know what they are doing show up at the shooting range.

    For myself, guns and shooting has always been a hobby so I've shot thousands of rounds with various guns in different settings (fixed ranges and backcountry) and also hunting. My observation is that nothing can really substitute for shooting a vast number of rounds and experiencing different guns. Even shooting a couple bricks of .22LR will develop fundamentals. Getting formal training does speed up the learning process and makes up for not shooting as much. I don't think every gun owner who owns for SD purposes may need to be skilled in all handgun combat skills. Marksmanship under pressure certainly is a requirement. Speed reloading or tactical reloading is always good to know but probably not vital for every gun owner. Of course, over training is always good. I think everyone has various needs or purposes of having a gun. However, something like participation in an IDPA match would be beneficial and enlightening for handgun owners who bought for SD use.

    I guess I can only hope that anyone who buys a gun will be responsible enough to adequately learn/practice shooting skills and getting proper instruction for their needs (i.e. home defense use, concealed carry defense use, competition, hunting, etc). Of course, I think I'd be fooling myself to believe that every single gun owner will do that.

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    okla
    Posts
    4,298
    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Not what is required by the state or regulating agency, not talking about mandated training or further regulations or it is their God given right to carry with no standards, simply what you feel someone should know by your standards or by the standards of common sense before they carry their firearm for self defense.

    No offense to anyone here but damn is there something in the above sentences that has a hidden meaning, is unclear or otherwise confusing? Maybe the standard for comprehension is set to high.
    It is a good idea that can and will come back to bite us. Most Laws start out as just a good suggestion. Trouble is that most folks making the suggestion can not stand it when others refuse to follow it voluntarily. If you will not do it voluntarily then they have to make it mandatory.

    For years seat belts were voluntary. After all its a personal choice isn't it? Then when folks did not make the choice they were supposed to make it became mandatory. Firearms training will work the same way. Then once it becomes mandatory we will improve it each legislative session by adding more and more rules and qualifications that must be met.

    Michael

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    TX/NH
    Posts
    5,811
    @mir1m: I think you are totally misuderstanding me (tacman can speak for himself). But we are not advocating anything that anyone gets involved except for the individual person. Like Tacman said:are we speaking Swedish here? It is just a list of things that I feel everyone should know

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

conceal carry class profeciencies for oklahoma

,

hid your guns.com

,

minimum competency standard for owning a firearm

,

minimum standards to be in prepper group

,

prepper group minimum standards

Click on a term to search for related topics.