Minimum standards

This is a discussion on Minimum standards within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by suntzu @mir1m: I think you are totally misuderstanding me (tacman can speak for himself). But we are not advocating anything that anyone ...

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Thread: Minimum standards

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    @mir1m: I think you are totally misuderstanding me (tacman can speak for himself). But we are not advocating anything that anyone gets involved except for the individual person. Like Tacman said:are we speaking Swedish here? It is just a list of things that I feel everyone should know
    I fully understand you and tacman. I believe you intent is the same as mine in that we all need to train. I think we are in total agreement on the issue.

    The trouble comes when others who feel strongly about that training decide that everyone must do it. They will see our idea of training as a very good one that others should do as well. If not voluntarily then by force. My example of seat belts was I believe a good example of the way people think. They started as a good idea. It was voluntary. When not enough volunteered to wear them then it was made mandatory.

    Its human nature to want everyone to be like us. Whether they want to or not.

    Michael

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    I must point out that when Anti's read posts like these they use them to their advantage. When they see us say that training is a good idea they take that to mean we favor a law that insures it. They do not understand the idea of free will as it goes against their principle that all good comes from the government. To them a good idea and a LAW is the same thing.

    Michael

  4. #33
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasgo View Post
    It is a little scary when amateurs who don't know what they are doing show up at the shooting range.
    To me, it's even scarier when people who are professionals in the serve-and-protect and don't know what they're doing, behind the gun - that DEA agent who ND'ed while demonstrating firearms safety to school-kids ( DEA Agent - YouTube ), that policewoman who ND'ed into the pavement as her partner secured a suspect on the ground ( Police Negligence - YouTube ).

    ----

    Personal minimum standards?

    Yesterday.

    I can always do better today. And I will. I will take what I've learned yesterday and apply it today, and I will strive to learn more today than I knew yesterday.

    In my ideal world, others will strive for the same.
    shockwave likes this.

  5. #34
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    "To be able to draw the firearm from whatever carry method they choose and engage a hostile target from 7 yards in under 2 seconds and actually hitting the target in a location that would be effective."
    That qualification alone eliminates about 90% of all CHL holders on this board, in this state, and on the planet. Hope the antis-in-charge don't read boards like this one when such expert testimony appears.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    "To be able to draw the firearm from whatever carry method they choose and engage a hostile target from 7 yards in under 2 seconds and actually hitting the target in a location that would be effective."
    That qualification alone eliminates about 90% of all CHL holders on this board, in this state, and on the planet. Hope the antis-in-charge don't read boards like this one when such expert testimony appears.
    This is the reason for this topic.....Folks in that 90% need to understand the personal, yes I said PERSONAL responsibility involved in carrying a gun. We as instructors need to convey this to our students.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    This is the reason for this topic.....
    To provide fuel for the antis???
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    To provide fuel for the antis???
    No, to further government intervention along with the antis.....

    The reason for this thread is to get people to understand what is necessary to be able to defends oneself with a firearm. Hope my swedish is on point today...
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  9. #38
    New Member Array cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Knowing full well that there is a very diverse group of individuals on the forum with varying levels of education, mindset, skillset, training and that are employed in a large cross section of different jobs, I would like to propose the following questions.

    What do you consider to be the minimum standards for proficiency/training that someone should have to carry and potentially use a weapon in a self defense situation?

    Not what is required by the state or regulating agency, not talking about mandated training or further regulations or it is their God given right to carry with no standards, simply what you feel someone should know by your standards or by the standards of common sense before they carry their firearm for self defense.

    What are your personal minimum standards that you have set, attained or surpassed for yourself?

    My world is a bit different from others here so I will simply give an opinion of what I think someone should know or have in order to meet my minimum standards for everyday carry in the states.
    New to the forum here, but found this an interesting discussion so it looked like a good place to jump in. I will simply expand (in RED) on what you have mentioned below:

    Knowledge of how to handle a firearm safely in the first place. I would change this to read, "A demonstrable understanding of fundamental safe gun handling rules - an intimate knowledge, in and of itself, is not enough - there must also be a mastery in the practical application of these fundamental rules at all times".

    A a working knowledge of the firearm that they are using. They should be able to disassemble and reassemble and conduct a manual of arms without help of the manual or calling someone for advice. Knowing the location and manipulation of all controls, safeties and so on. This is a bit more arbitrary than it needs to be, IMO. Certainly an intimate working knowledge of the platform is absolutely necessary (being able to "run the gun") for efficient operation, and the ability to field strip the weapon to the point required for adequate basic cleaning is important, but I wouldn't fault someone (or myself) for having to turn to the manual for detailed disassembly instructions. Some guns simply have a much more complex take-down procedure than others. I would much rather see someone rely on the book than to have them damage a firearm, lose a part, or re-assemble in a manner that made the firearm unsafe.

    The ability to safely load and holster the firearm in a condition that is ready to fire upon drawing the weapon without further manipulation of the pistol. (excluding the safety) Again, this is too arbitrary for me. The fact is, there are some modes of carry, and particularly certain carry devices, people use that don't lend themselves well to carrying the firearm in Condition "1" or Condition "0" (depending on the platform). I know a lady, for example, that carries her Glock 27 in Condition "3" when she carries it in her holster purse because she feels there is a substantial enough risk that a foreign object in the opposite compartment of the purse, or even her weapon retention efforts when fighting off a purse grab, could somehow manage to activate the trigger under certain conditions. So I would change this to read, "The knowledge and attitude necessary to carry the firearm in the safest, yet most readily usable condition, appropriate for the type of carry device chosen, whereby drawing and firing the pistol is able to be performed with the least amount of manipulation possible".

    To be able to draw the firearm from whatever carry method they choose and engage a hostile target from 7 yards in under 2 seconds and actually hitting the target in a location that would be effective. I agree with this for the most part, except that I wouldn't place an arbitrary time limit on it. When you consider different modes of carry, not only for a primary weapon, but also for a backup, you quickly realize that under certain conditions, even the most well-trained individual would never be able to achieve these results. Fast isn't necessarily synonymous with "efficient", so this standard has to be more subjective, IMO.

    To perform a reload of their particular firearm in a competant manner without hesitation or malfunction. And I would define "competent manner" as meaning: while behind cover/concealment or while seeking cover/concealment if available and as appropriate for the circumstances. I would also point out that by it's very nature, this standard REQUIRES the user to carry the necessary item(s) needed to perform the reload (primarily a spare loaded magazine or speedloader) at all times - something a surprisingly large number of armed citizens seem to think is unimportant.

    Can diagnose and clear all types of common malfunctions in a speedy and proficient manner. Agreed.

    Maintain an effective level of accuracy out to whatever distance limitations that they set for themselves. I would change this to read, "Be able to demonstrate proper understanding and application of the important balance of speed and precision on targets of varying size and from various distances" And I would make that change because I feel that it is very hard to quantify exactly what it is that makes up an "effective level of accuracy" to any large degree.

    In addition, I would add that my own personal standards require me to have a good understanding of both weapons laws and use of force laws in my primary operating location and that it is incumbent upon ME to become educated on those laws in any new location before I step into that environment with my weapon.

    Before someone chimes in with some are these are ridiculouslly simple and everyone should already know that, you would be surprised at some of the posts that have been on here over time. These are the ones I can think of at the moment, I am sure there are others. You notice that I did not put a lot of emphasis on setting a particular time limit or a specific distance except for one.

    So let's hear what you have to say, who knows maybe it will make someone else have one of those "Never thought of that moments".
    Good, thought-provoking post, sir. And for the record, I would NEVER wish to force my own personal standards on anyone else.

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    No, to further government intervention along with the antis.....

    The reason for this thread is to get people to understand what is necessary to be able to defends oneself with a firearm. Hope my swedish is on point today...
    People often confuse my disagreement with a lack of understanding.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    People often confuse my disagreement with a lack of understanding.
    I guess that would be the curse of text, and asking questions for every post....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    This is the reason for this topic.....Folks in that 90% need to understand the personal, yes I said PERSONAL responsibility involved in carrying a gun. We as instructors need to convey this to our students.
    When the State requires us to certify that every student taking our 10 hour course has successfully shown the ability to draw and effectively fire at x number of feet in y number of seconds, the Law of Unintended Consequences will be in full effect.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  13. #42
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    Another question--Can any of you fellows out there carrying your LCP in your Smartcarry draw and deliver effective fire at 21 feet in two seconds?
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  14. #43
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    People often confuse my disagreement with a lack of understanding.
    Now this is just downright funny. Love it.

    Michael

  15. #44
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    When the State requires us to certify that every student taking our 10 hour course has successfully shown the ability to draw and effectively fire at x number of feet in y number of seconds, the Law of Unintended Consequences will be in full effect.
    I guess its my turn to ask a question. Have you ever failed someone from one of your classes? I havent yet. Just curious
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  16. #45
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    I must point out that when Anti's read posts like these they use them to their advantage. When they see us say that training is a good idea they take that to mean we favor a law that insures it. They do not understand the idea of free will as it goes against their principle that all good comes from the government. To them a good idea and a LAW is the same thing.

    Michael
    With all of the other ammo we give them (OC vs CC, folks blowing off n-gun signs whether they have the force of law or not, sticking up for folks like the ones in NYC who seem to not look up local gun laws) saying training is a good idea I do not believe is giving them all that much ammo. This is an internet forum, what are they going to quote to a congressman "tacman or suntzu or mirm1 said this or that"......I am not really concerned about it.

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