Minimum standards - Page 4

Minimum standards

This is a discussion on Minimum standards within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I see the owning, having and the carrying of a firearm as a right. Everyone has that right and no one has the right to ...

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  1. #46
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    I see the owning, having and the carrying of a firearm as a right. Everyone has that right and no one has the right to remove it, but to all action there is a reaction and if your action with a gun causes me fear then you may not like my reaction. The education you receive at such time may not be to your liking.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes


  2. #47
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    This started off as a thread with someone stating what he thought were good things for folks to be able to do if they want to carry and be able to defend themselves and loved ones. Now, somehow, it has warped into folks saying it is ammunition for anti's. First I chalked it up as a full moon. Then I thought some of us were speaking Swedish.


    Good grief. If this thread is the downfall to the 2nd Amendment then I just don't know what to say except in Klingon:

    Heghlu'meH QaQ jajvam
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  3. #48
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    This started off as a thread with someone stating what he thought were good things for folks to be able to do if they want to carry and be able to defend themselves and loved ones. Now, somehow, it has warped into folks saying it is ammunition for anti's. First I chalked it up as a full moon. Then I thought some of us were speaking Swedish.


    Good grief. If this thread is the downfall to the 2nd Amendment then I just don't know what to say except in Klingon:

    Heghlu'meH QaQ jajvam
    I plead guilty for helping to lead this thread astray. Probably a result of my thirty some years of helping to negotiate union contracts. It has made me overly careful on subjects such as this. Instead of just looking at things at face value I have learned to look for items in what looks to be innocent documents that will come back to haunt me later on. The hidden motives.
    Sorry for the highjack.

    Michael

  4. #49
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    spoken at length on this before

    this is out of context in some places--take it for what its worth.
    Compatency with a gun for self defense

    if you are carrying a gun before you can effectively use it...buying a guitar ain't gonna mean the rolling stones are gonna ask you to play with them

    to be clear---buy the guitar and practice for years and perhaps you have the skills to be a professional. but along the way you will
    have become competent. what has any to think that the skills to operate a gun are any differently acquired?
    practice followed by more practice till you are competent ( 2 shoot from concealment in 6" in under 2 seconds) and than
    more practice to maintain competency and perhaps move up to 'truly skilled" ( 3 targets, each double taped COM from concealment in 1.5 seconds or faster)
    I am on referral only . CCW classes are 4-6 students a couple times a month. I encourage those getting a permit to bring their spouse or SO along ( no charge-no cert either) so they will be familiar with a gun and thus safer around them. For self-defense classes i teach basic through advanced and recommend that everyone, gun carries or not, take at minimum 6 months of what ever martial arts they find interesting. It teaches you balance, how to fall, that you can take a hit and stay in the fight and more.
    For basic it would be one-on-one ( or with spouse, cause 2 working together is better than one whose energy is diminished by protecting another) for 3 classes over 6 weeks. I send you home each time with drills. You call me as needed and when ready for the next lesson. Progress to profeciency is not less than 6 months...it takes at least that long for your body to learn what your mind may think it already does.

    And no—i do not even try to teach you everything...i teach you to think; and of course how to wear a gun, proper holster, why you likly need 3 different guns to get through different seasons and how you dress, to observe, to play the ‘what-if’ game and other skills built around furthering SA.

    Carrying a gun is like having the skills to drive the INDY 500 and you just need the car to putter round town—but occasionally you have to avoid something or fill out an accident report ( or get deaded). With the gun you need the trained skills of the professional; yet it is a skill you hope to never need. The last thing you ever want to do is shoot someone but it may be the 1st thing you have to do. That’s why you train.

    additionally-- about half the basic class people start the SD class while waiting for their permit to be processed. this is time we work together and based on their life style, how they are shaped and dress,to fit them with holsters working off of which guns ( and grips) fit them. that why the 1st class is 4 hours. than 3 and 2. a 1st goal is to be competent. that is when you can draw from concealment and place 2 shots COM in under 2 seconds. at this level, though there is still lots more to learn, you are good to go out in the real world armed. in between 2 shots/2 seconds are more mini-goals on your way to being pretty much as good as it gets: the Mozambique in or under 1.5 seconds. that’s set up as 3--8" paper plates at 3, 5 and 7 yards and 2 shots in each, from concealed with a buzzer/timer.
    90+ % get good; perhaps 20% shine. expressed another way--competency and shooting in a local IDPA will get you in the top half for sure, proficient places you in the top 10%.
    jasgo likes this.
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  5. #50
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    Well were to begin.

    "To be able to draw the firearm from whatever carry method they choose and engage a hostile target from 7 yards in under 2 seconds and actually hitting the target in a location that would be effective."
    That qualification alone eliminates about 90% of all CHL holders on this board, in this state, and on the planet. Hope the antis-in-charge don't read boards like this one when such expert testimony appears.


    Another question--Can any of you fellows out there carrying your LCP in your Smartcarry draw and deliver effective fire at 21 feet in two seconds?


    I will answer these together. If this simple task is above your skill level or 90% percent of people on this board you guys are in big trouble. I can only guess that you are speaking for your own skills because you are not speaking for the majority of other members.
    In reference to your second statement ....in my original post I believe I used a phrase something like "by the standards of common sense". Well once again this must be above the comprehension level of some.
    Common sense would dictate that drawing an LCP from a smartcarry would take longer than two seconds, use your head. It would come to reason if you are carrying a snubnose revolver in your underwear it would take a bit to get to it compared to a conventional OWB/IWB holster. No matter what the method of carry if you cannot hit the target once you draw you have issues. This skillset is based on drawing from a conventional holster from concealment and not from an ankle rig, butt crack holster or anything else.

    Have we really reached the point that in every post we have to preclude any other options and include every variation just to ask a simple question or is it just you?

    Once again in the OP I stated:

    Not what is required by the state or regulating agency, not talking about mandated training or further regulations or it is their God given right to carry with no standards, simply what you feel someone should know by your standards or by the standards of common sense before they carry their firearm for self defense.


    Again I will ask is there something about this that is written in a foreign language, misunderstood, or not clear? There is not a damn thing that I have said or implied about further Government testing or requirements.


    To provide fuel for the antis???


    You are kidding with this statement right? This statement reminds me of the constables in my state. A constable is elected and his duty is to assist the sheriff if needed, to serve an occasional civil paper and so on. Many are simply good ole boys who run for the position in their township just for something to do. They do not receive a paycheck and provide their own equipment and are required to have no training, however some elect to go through the State Academy.

    Often times I would have training classes with my department and would invite them. They would often attend but request they not be given a certificate or even sign an attendance roster. When curiosity finally got the best of me I was astounded by the answer. One of the constables looked me dead in the eye and said "If I/we are not certified in something we can't be held responsible for it" and he was totally serious.

    So in relation to your statement if for whatever reason the "anti's" saw this or heard that you passed a certain skillset they would somehow use the fact that you obtained a higher skill level than what was required, which shows that you are a responsible person and genuinely concerned about what you do, they would use this against you or others?

    I will close with this. I have my own personal minimum standards that I hold myself and others that work for me. If you don't have standards that is your business and none of my concern. If you and others are so terrified of the anti gunners reading posts and using them you really need to get off the forums, hide your guns, tell your friends you sold your guns and forbid anyone to mention the topic in your home.

    I trully hope you are just making a faint hearted attempt at being a pain in the butt or trying to be sarcastic because if you are trully serious about what you are saying you really, really need professional help.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  6. #51
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    [QUOTE=tacman605;2252733]Well were to begin.

    "To be able to draw the firearm from whatever carry method they choose and engage a hostile target from 7 yards in under 2 seconds and actually hitting the target in a location that would be effective."
    That qualification alone eliminates about 90% of all CHL holders on this board, in this state, and on the planet. Hope the antis-in-charge don't read boards like this one when such expert testimony appears.


    Another question--Can any of you fellows out there carrying your LCP in your Smartcarry draw and deliver effective fire at 21 feet in two seconds?


    I will answer these together. If this simple task is above your skill level or 90% percent of people on this board you guys are in big trouble. I can only guess that you are speaking for your own skills because you are not speaking for the majority of other members.
    In reference to your second statement ....in my original post I believe I used a phrase something like "by the standards of common sense". Well once again this must be above the comprehension level of some.
    Common sense would dictate that drawing an LCP from a smartcarry would take longer than two seconds, use your head. It would come to reason if you are carrying a snubnose revolver in your underwear it would take a bit to get to it compared to a conventional OWB/IWB holster. No matter what the method of carry if you cannot hit the target once you draw you have issues. This skillset is based on drawing from a conventional holster from concealment and not from an ankle rig, butt crack holster or anything else.
    Again I will ask is there something about this that is written in a foreign language, misunderstood, or not clear? There is not a damn thing that I have said or implied about further Government testing or requirements.
    /QUOTE]/

    Sorry, I can't get that last quote to work.
    If you can determine the level of proficiency for literally thousands of anonymous internet inhabitants who post on boards like this one, you are a better judge of talent than most.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
    William T. Sherman

  7. #52
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    OK here goes mine in red

    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Knowing full well that there is a very diverse group of individuals on the forum with varying levels of education, mindset, skillset, training and that are employed in a large cross section of different jobs, I would like to propose the following questions.

    What do you consider to be the minimum standards for proficiency/training that someone should have to carry and potentially use a weapon in a self defense situation?To at least know which end of the gun the bullet comes out of and know enough to not shoot themselves in the foot. The Constitution gives us the right to keep and bear arm but does not set the standards for its uses. So that is for everyone to set on their own I don't want someone telling me what those standard are and do not feel it is up to me to tell them either. Everyone should know their needs and how to provide for them if not they will play the consequences. So the minimum requirement for other is don't point it at me

    Not what is required by the state or regulating agency, not talking about mandated training or further regulations or it is their God given right to carry with no standards, simply what you feel someone should know by your standards or by the standards of common sense before they carry their firearm for self defense.

    What are your personal minimum standards that you have set, attained or surpassed for yourself? My personal standards are knowing in my heart and mind that I am capable of winning most fights I am in. Not only did I train and practice what I thought those requirements where but also put them to the test in FOF the closest thing to actual gunfighting. My first thoughts are to not take hits or get cut myself, you have to be able to get off the X. Then I want to get the first good solid hit of the fight (that means solid COM or head shot), first hit is a game changer. Then I shoot them to the ground, I don't do double taps then assess. I don't carry pocket pistols, I want high cap mag fighting pistols. Conceal what you would want when you are in the gunfight of your life, because you will be. So minimum requirement for me---what I see my is life worth because that is what I'm betting on it. Anything less I could die and I don't like those odds. I also have not reached my minimum requirements and most likely never will, that's why I keep training and practicing.

    My world is a bit different from others here so I will simply give an opinion of what I think someone should know or have in order to meet my minimum standards for everyday carry in the states.

    Knowledge of how to handle a firearm safely in the first place.

    A a working knowledge of the firearm that they are using. They should be able to disassemble and reassemble and conduct a manual of arms without help of the manual or calling someone for advice. Knowing the location and manipulation of all controls, safeties and so on.

    The ability to safely load and holster the firearm in a condition that is ready to fire upon drawing the weapon without further manipulation of the pistol. (excluding the safety)

    To be able to draw the firearm from whatever carry method they choose and engage a hostile target from 7 yards in under 2 seconds and actually hitting the target in a location that would be effective.

    To perform a reload of their particular firearm in a competant manner without hesitation or malfunction.

    Can diagnose and clear all types of common malfunctions in a speedy and proficient manner.

    Maintain an effective level of accuracy out to whatever distance limitations that they set for themselves.

    Before someone chimes in with some are these are ridiculouslly simple and everyone should already know that, you would be surprised at some of the posts that have been on here over time. These are the ones I can think of at the moment, I am sure there are others. You notice that I did not put a lot of emphasis on setting a particular time limit or a specific distance except for one.

    So let's hear what you have to say, who knows maybe it will make someone else have one of those "Never thought of that moments".
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  8. #53
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    Mike I am not attempting to determine the level of anything for anybody on the other hand though you are making a very big claim that 90% of people on the forum cannot complete the skill mentioned. The OP was simply an opinion of what minimum standards/skills that I think people should have and others added to it.

    The skillset I mentioned is one of the most common skill requirements that is practiced but again I live in a different world than you do. I love to train and I carry a firearm for a living so I want to have the greatest level of skill that I can.
    I would be happy to start a poll and ask that simple question "Can you from concealment with a conventional holster draw, fire and hit the target effectively in 2 seconds or less?".

    If you yourself cannot do it that is on you. I can do it and so can many, many members on here and concealed carriers throughout the U.S. I may have higher expectations than you do both for others and myself but I refuse to lower my standards just to make you or anyone else feel good.

    Claudeclay hit the nail on the head with his statement:

    if you are carrying a gun before you can effectively use it...buying a guitar ain't gonna mean the rolling stones are gonna ask you to play with them


    It personally does not matter to me what basic/minimum skills/standards you or anyone else has it is your life that hangs in the balance, but I do express concern when Carl the concealed carrier over estimates his skill and does something that jeopardizes me or mine whether it be on the range or the street. You don't have to know squat past whatever your state requires you to have, but common sense would say you might want to go a bit farther.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  9. #54
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    In your original post, it seemed to me as though you believed everyone should be required to demonstrate their ability to accurately draw and deliver effective fire on a target at 21 feet in less than 2 seconds. I expressed my disbelief that the overwhelming majority of current CHL holders would be able to do that. Granted, I said 90%, and should have less concisively said "probably around 90%". Given what I know and what I see, I'm comfortable with that assertion. Pocket-carry LCPs, PF9's and other .380 mouse guns are the norm, at least around here, as are Uncle Mike SOB's, Smartcarry, Passport iwb's complete with thumbreak, and a bunch of people who proudly display their CHL's to everybody they know while otherwise unarmed. No, I do not believe these people can achieve the shot you propose.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
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  10. #55
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    Can any of you fellows out there carrying your LCP in your Smartcarry draw and deliver effective fire at 21 feet in two seconds?
    "Can you from concealment with a conventional holster draw, fire and hit the target effectively in 2 seconds or less?"
    ...while moving off the line of fire?

    Not getting shot is at least equally important as returning fire.
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    ...while moving off the line of fire?

    Not getting shot is at least equally important as returning fire.
    At least.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
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  12. #57
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    Mike in the OP I stated what I thought people should be able to do by my standards, in my world. You obviously have different ideas, great. As I stated it is your life not mine.

    I realize that many here carry pocket rockets, belly bands, thunderwear and so on could they accomplish the draw in the time given? Probably not but it is something to strive for and if you think about it if it actually takes you longer than that would that method of carry be effective in an actual SD situation?
    The drill mentioned is practiced and performed from conventional concealed carry holsters however here is one example of a shooter with one of the more non conventional holsters and a pocket pistol completing the drill with time to spare on the draw. Not sure of the distance but it is not 7 yards but you can get the idea.


    Flashbang Bra Holster Is 'Sexy, Fast, and Practical' | Gadget Lab | Wired.com

    Scott you are absolutely correct. Moving off the X while you draw is the next step in this drill. You are a harder target to hit while you are moving. The limits of this drill can easily be met while moving.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  13. #58
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    Bill. You are correct the OP asked what do you felt someone should know or skills they should have, no requirements or mandatory anything.

    For many what you stated is as far as a level they will ever obtain "don't point it at me" and that may be fine for them or you no argument there, but in the perfect world people would know how to carry and shoot a weapon before carrying it, they would know how to ride a motorcycle before hitting the street, or would at least be proficient to some degree before doing a number of things.

    Your personal standards are pretty damn high I wish others shared them. You train to win not just to be adequate or to fit into the stats somewhere. Keep going, never quit and always shoot them to the ground.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  14. #59
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    tacman, I see a difference between the motorcycle and the gun one is a right and the other a privilege. I put the right of keeping and bearing a gun with the right of speech. Yes it is better to have some education better one gives a speech but no one says you must go to school before you can talk.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    tacman, I see a difference between the motorcycle and the gun one is a right and the other a privilege. I put the right of keeping and bearing a gun with the right of speech. Yes it is better to have some education better one gives a speech but no one says you must go to school before you can talk.
    And they are so easy to tell apart.

    Michael

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