Minimum standards - Page 5

Minimum standards

This is a discussion on Minimum standards within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by tacman605 Mike in the OP I stated what I thought people should be able to do by my standards, in my world. ...

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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Mike in the OP I stated what I thought people should be able to do by my standards, in my world. You obviously have different ideas, great. As I stated it is your life not mine.I realize that many here carry pocket rockets, belly bands, thunderwear and so on could they accomplish the draw in the time given?
    What I believe they can, should or will do is of little relevance in their world. They will do what they do in spite of my most adamant protests to the contrary. Should they be DQ'ed from carrying because I don't like their gear or their abilities?
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
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  2. #62
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    I want to start by recognising that a lot of people start to carry, are triggered to do so, by an event that scares them or a need that presents itself (threats, stalker, etc...). With that as a starting place, I would not set my (in their shoes) standard for carrying at anything less than being able to draw the gun from whatever method it is safely being carried, point and fire. This may seem pathetic and irresponsible to some, but let me continue.

    My standard is that I improve and learn. Making a decision to carry a gun is an improvement from being defenseless. Upon realizing the need be prepared to defend yourself, it is now your responsibility to learn how to do so to the best of your ability. Can I meet most of the items in the expectations that several people here have explained that they hold themselves to? Yes. I can even draw, aim and squeeze the trigger within 2 seconds, in my bedroom with an empty gun, because my local ranges don't allow shooting from the holster. That is why my standard is now increased and raising the bar to where I am taking steps to get more training to further improve my skills.

    The standard that I hold myself to will always be in flux. And the standard I hold my wife to is likewise fluid. My goal is to always be pushing both of us to get better, no matter where we currently are in our skill sets.
    Mike1956 likes this.
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  3. #63
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    Bill I realize that one is a right and one is a privledge. I am talking about a level of competance for the action itself. As far as I know a speech although powerful, compelling and sometimes dangerous never pulled the trigger, literally speaking, and failed to hit the target for lack of skill.
    If someone wants to carry a gun and have little or no training, skill, competance or whatever you want to call it so be it all on them but just remember they may be the one seated next to you and your family at Burger King when the place gets robbed. You sit quietly and be a good witness while he overestimates his skill level and starts a gunfight. But that is his right to carry no matter who gets hurt.

    Mike again I realize that what I think, you think or anyone else thinks will not affect anyone else unless they allow it. I asked a couple of simple questions in regards to what other concealed carriers thought not the answer to the meaning of life.

    You live with your skill level and I will live with mine, Bill can live with his and Micheal with his we don't have to agree or change to fit each others lifestyle or skill level. As I stated before it is your life in the balance not mine. I simply expect more from myself and others, right or wrong it is simply how I live my life.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  4. #64
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    tacman, trouble is once you start to put limits on a right it stops being a right and becomes a privilege. That's why we have what we have now with the owning and carrying of a gun, because we allowed those in power to put limits on the rights give to use with the right of Keeping and Bearing of arms. Trouble being once it start is very hard to stop if you can at all.

    I will agree, my thoughts are that a large % of those on this site do not meet my standards of what one should know or be able to do (in many things). But that does not mean that all should have to meet my standards either. There are lots of people on the roads everyday that don't meet my standards of driving but I'm out the everyday with them. I deal with what ever comes my way at the time it comes. Guess that would be one of my personal standards---being able to deal with things as they come and when they come. I try very hard not to worry about what ifs.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Bill I realize that one is a right and one is a privledge. I am talking about a level of competance for the action itself. As far as I know a speech although powerful, compelling and sometimes dangerous never pulled the trigger, literally speaking, and failed to hit the target for lack of skill.
    If someone wants to carry a gun and have little or no training, skill, competance or whatever you want to call it so be it all on them but just remember they may be the one seated next to you and your family at Burger King when the place gets robbed. You sit quietly and be a good witness while he overestimates his skill level and starts a gunfight. But that is his right to carry no matter who gets hurt.

    Mike again I realize that what I think, you think or anyone else thinks will not affect anyone else unless they allow it. I asked a couple of simple questions in regards to what other concealed carriers thought not the answer to the meaning of life.

    You live with your skill level and I will live with mine, Bill can live with his and Micheal with his we don't have to agree or change to fit each others lifestyle or skill level. As I stated before it is your life in the balance not mine. I simply expect more from myself and others, right or wrong it is simply how I live my life.
    My hopes for the fellow next to me in Burger King mirror yours, but my experiences in the world of everyday concealed carry give me no reason for optimism. He is much more likely to be carrying a Kel-tec in his front pocket than a tricked-out race gun riding in a Max-Con V or Versa Max. He probably hasn't put two hundred rounds through it since he took the basic pistol course. Given that, I can concern myself only with my own abilities and skills, and paying very close attention to what goes on around me with the understanding that if and when it does happen, I am entirely on my own. All I have is what I bought, and help won't get here until long after it happens.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
    William T. Sherman

  6. #66
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    Bill not once, anywhere did I say anything to do with putting limits on rights.

    The questions were for your personal thoughts, period. As I and others have stated my standards are mine they have nothing to do with anyone else they don't have to agree or abide by them we are responsible for ourselves that is it.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  7. #67
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    The reality is, we have laws in place to deal with folks who perpetrate negligent acts with a firearm, so as a society, we have at least SOME expectation that you will exercise at least a modicum of common sense when it comes to handling a gun. Clearly, the vast majority of folks who visit this site hold themselves to a much, much higher standard - even if said standards don't necessarily meet our own personal standards we have set for ourselves individually.

  8. #68
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    I think anyone that carries a weapon should be well versed in their state's laws governing the use of lethal force. On top of that they should also be aware of their state's historical tendencies toward the use of lethal force regardless of the statutes. Knowing what they are facing if they have to use lethal force may help them make the right decisions BEFORE they draw their weapon.

  9. #69
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Bill not once, anywhere did I say anything to do with putting limits on rights.

    The questions were for your personal thoughts, period. As I and others have stated my standards are mine they have nothing to do with anyone else they don't have to agree or abide by them we are responsible for ourselves that is it.
    "What do you consider to be the minimum standards for proficiency/training that someone should have to carry and potentially use a weapon in a self defense situation"?

    With this statement in your very first post you put limits on peoples rights to keep and bear firearms. Any time you put minimum standards on the proficiency/training for someone to carry and use a weapon for self defense you are limiting their right to have a gun.

    Yes I have what I think one needs to meet the standards but that does not mean anyone else has to meet those same standards or would even want to. The powers to be have already put their requirements and standards on the owning and carrying of a gun and I refuse to give them more ideas.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  10. #70
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    Bill I cannot limit a damn thing and neither can you that is why I said "What do you consider" not the local, state or Feds YOU as an individual.

    The question goes on to say "SHOULD" not will have or must. My opinion or thoughts on an internet forum carry just as much weight as yours does when when it comes to laws and constitutional rights and changing them, which is about none.

    I asked a simple question about what others thought I am not trying to limit anyone from anything quit trying to make this a constitutional soapbox debate. If a person wants to carry a gun without knowing how to use it more power to him/her it is there life not mine.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  11. #71
    Senior Member Array Beans's Avatar
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    IMHO a person personal standards is what they accept to "bet thier life on" No more no less.

  12. #72
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    All depends upon what you think you need to be capable of ......
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  13. #73
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    Eagle you are correct. I know I have to meet certain standards in order to survive a situation, they are not over the top super secret, tier 1 SOCOM skills, they are basic skills like firearms safety, knowing your weapon, drawing and hitting your target, reloading, shooting while moving. As you stated though it is what YOU think YOU will need to survive.

    The bad thing is though if you are wrong in your assessment of what you might need, you won't get a second chance to make a first impression.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  14. #74
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    As you stated though it is what YOU think YOU will need to survive.
    The bad thing is though if you are wrong in your assessment of what you might need, you won't get a second chance to make a first impression.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    All depends upon what you think you need to be capable of ......
    This is what I think. Every persons situation is different in regard to the availability of training facilities that allow you to train realistically, the physical ability to train, the amount of funds an individual has, and how much time they have available or willing to make available for training. How they prioritize these to other aspect of their life is soley based on them. I would like to think that everybody does a realistic assessment of what the threat is to them. Of course crime can happen anytime, even in a neighborhood that has not seen a gun related crime in years. The OP did not have anything fancy or real time consuming in it. Most or all can be done at a local range or practiced in ones home.
    As far as more advanced training that is just being highly encouraged. Simple concepts like moving backwards have seem to slip the grasp of some folks. If at all possible I recommend that everybody attend a formal course from a reputable trainer to see what really should be a minimum of tools in ones toolbox.

  15. #75
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    What an amusing discussion. Really fun seeing how many people read one or two sentences from the OP, got all offended, and then went into "lecture mode" about 2A, etc. Kinda sad, too.

    Anyway, I'm in the "moving target" camp, myself. However good I am today, I can get better tomorrow.

    The minimum standard I set for myself originally was:

    1. Operate weapon at a professional level of safety.
    2. Be able to hit a target at a reasonable distance.
    3. Maintain weapon at a professional level of reliability.

    You see the word "professional" there twice. You can substitute "extreme," "flawless," anything that's the opposite of "marginal."

    With safety, one single mistake could injure or kill yourself or others. So personally speaking, I think that if you are unable to master safe handling and operation to a level where you ensure you will never experience an ND, then you're failing a minimum standard.

    Later, having added professional training and competitive practice, I've built on that foundation, but I would posit the above 3 standards as being highly advisable.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

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