This is a discussion on How many members here can accomplish this drill? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I do this probably more than 100 times a week dry and live fire at 5 to 7 yards. My times are pretty good. I ...
Never tried before
Don't need to
I do this probably more than 100 times a week dry and live fire at 5 to 7 yards. My times are pretty good. I can usually get a handful of shots off in 2 seconds. I'll take my timer with me this week to my single shot times and how many I can fire in 2 seconds.
As for movement… I'll take ANY movement. Movement saved my life last year, though it was a few feet to the right, not back. I'm more than happy to move back. I may need to create distance since people don't often fall down after being shot. I may have two people to deal with and it's much better to do it from 10 feet than 2. Movements should be explosions off of your mark, not some slow step.
I've been to many, many advanced classes not just on how to use the weapon, but how to fight with it. These classes are tactics based. Everyone single one has covered rearward movement and we've gone over scenarios where it may be your best option.
If I'm fighting in a hallway, you better believe I'm moving backward to create distance or I'm going to close the gap and be on top of the threat. Either way, I'm moving and I'm moving now with a powerful, deliberate action. Standing still is the only wrong choice. During a fight, it is exceptionally hard to hit a moving target, even if it's moving on the same line as you. Forward and rearward movement still create a bob and weave type effect, as small as it may seem. This is why headshots are not a practical concept and most don't even consider it an option outside of very specific scenarios.
Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe
I have my wife use a stop watch and time me from the draw to 5 shots at a 5 inch circle in 5 seconds from 5 yards. This is known a the 4x5 drill. To do this I don't draw from a tucked CC but from my CC IWB holster under a jacket. I can place all five shots within the 5 inch circle within 4.5 to 4.9 seconds. I practiced this a lot over the last 6 months and plan to move from 5 yards to 10 yards to see how that goes.
Sig P-220 Primary Carry, CZ-75 Preb police tradein alternate.
Walther 1974 PP RP police tradein if i go light.
S&W Model 66 (No Dash) for the woods
OK, I'd previously done this in quals at 3 seconds, but this had me intrigued, so I've been practicing out back a bit. Solo practice right now, so nobody to do official timing. I think I'm doing this pretty close to 2 secs, but probably a hair over. The lost second is huge.
From concealment (loose shirt or jacket), I was doing OK on a Q target at 7 yards, but I found myself rushing the shots and spreading them to the outer edges of the center "pie plate." Today, I decided to drop a quick half-box of ammo in the pouring rain, but took away the Q target and went with 3x5 cards to make me aim smaller.
P250SC 9mm (3.6" bbl), as carried - so stubby handle, no extended mag, Tommy Theis hybrid IWB, light jacket cover, starting w/palms spread out, thumbs on chest:
1st try - 2x misses (#1 3" [edit: left] and 2 maybe 4" Northeast of the high right corner). Ugly.
2nd try - 2x misses (right, closer to paper, but no cigar)...decided to slow down a bit.
3rd try - couldawouldashoulda - 1st bullet took out the staple and the card flew off the backing. I held the second shot and used 2 staples/card for the next 2.
4th try - success, and actually pretty close to center!... but this is at 3-ish seconds, I think.
5th try - 1st bullet center, 2nd missed just right.
Bottom line: this is a tough drill! Until I get more success, my plan is to start all my practice with a few iterations of this from a cold start: staple the cards, walk to the line, turn, draw, bang bang.
Standard size IDPA or something of equal size.
If you can put them in a standard dinner plate area that is more than enough.
"A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013
While I was in the US Border Patrol in the early 50's, I was coached by Bill Jordan, Keith, and Ed Mcgivern directly, and by that archaic term 'letters'. After a year my average was 3/5 th of a sec from the BP, open top holster, with me initiating the draw. We also worked on long range pistol work to 400 meters on a sil target.
Pistol used - S&W (naturally) Hi Way Patrol model (28) .357 with a 4" barrel and Keith long range front sight calibrated for 156-8 semi wadcutters at about 13-1400 fps.
Yep from under cover with IWB at 7yds, double tap. 1.5 seconds. My instructor makes us do it at most classes and I also practice the drill at the range.
G'morning: Most do not understand just how slow reaction time is, even in a combat situation. If you can draw and hit at around 1 sec. you can succcessfully draw and hit an apponent before he can fire, even if he has you covered.. Of course you also have to learn to step to one side simultaneously or to simply drop. Even if he fires, his reaction time simply will not allow him to correct, so he will fire where you were. I have demonstrated ths many times to the State police here.
A simple demonstration to show what I am talking about Have someone hold an EMPTY pistol, or rifle, with the muzzle touching you, then simply pivot or drop and see where the muzzle is ponting when the gun goes "click". You may receive some powder burns, but no bullet impact in a real situation.
A side rhingie, shooting at a paper or metal target simply is not the same psychologically as shooting at a human, moving figure. Under the guidance of my guus, I found that buying a 'large' section of a broken heavy plate mirror, and using wax bullets was a fantastic training program. In effect you are shooting a moving human figure. The impact of the wax bullets on the heavy mirror clearly shows if you had successfully hit where you intended.
Using the same mirror, using an empty gun, draw and fire at a predetermined point on your reflection, then when the hamer falls do 'not move the firearm', check your alignment to your intended impact point. A top method is to shoot at each of your eyes. You can simply back align the sights to see where you would have hit. When you can consistantly hit each eye, you are ready for the next step..
Don Jose de La mancha
Here's a video clip of Caleb being timed at the end of a 4.5 hour class (June 16th) shooting a controlled pair from concealment. The goal was to have a sub 2 second time from 5 yards. This was Caleb's first "shooting from concealment" class.
Caleb is shooting a Glock 26 9mm subcompact pistol with standard 10 rounds mags and a pearce extension. Holster is a Comp-Tac M-TAC on an Ares Gear Ranger Belt.
Movement was stressed and practiced religiously during class.
1.3 seconds for pie plate minute of angle, 1.8 seconds for real close to the center of the pie plate. A double tap in under 2 seconds in not a problem.
I don't practice drawing as much as I should.
LOL--I practice Bill Drills. That is to draw and fire six shots into the high center chest inunder 2 second. If any one shot is out of the 8" circe, I blew it, gotta run it again. Draw and fire one shot in under two? Yah. Prolly half that.
"What does Marcellus Wallace LOOK like?"
Yes but I may also give myself a "wedgie" while drawing in a real situation
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
--Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .
Yeah, I can deliver two shots in less than 2 seconds, into the torso out to 7 yards.
I need a lot more work to do it while GOTX.
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Trust in God and keep your powder dry
"A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source
I've been timed at less than 2 sec. from 21 ft. at the CC course I took last July. It's a result of practicing my drawing and dryfiring at home as well as doing those same things on steel targets at the C2 Shooting Center .