Shooting the Bad Guy Off Your Gun & Other Stuff

This is a discussion on Shooting the Bad Guy Off Your Gun & Other Stuff within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by tacman605 But my God Paul you shot from retention and moved backwards while firing, what on earth makes you think that skill ...

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  1. #16
    August 19, 1970 - June 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    But my God Paul you shot from retention and moved backwards while firing, what on earth makes you think that skill would ever be needed?
    The idea of firing throughout the horizontal line of presentation is a very important one. Most folks tend to shoot from retention and then from full extension, often over extending the gun during the process.

    For this clip, I backed away to be able to illustrate the movement of the gun. In reality, if the fight starts in contact you are much better served by continuing to drive forward and through your opponent, extending the gun as appropriate as range increases. The range gets very upset when I destroy their backers demoing stuff for videos! ;)

    Obviously, I didn't talk about any of this in this video but I will get around to it in a future piece.

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  3. #17
    August 19, 1970 - June 2012
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    And, thanks, guys for all the positive comments!

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    Nice video thanks for sharing

  5. #19
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    Excellent advice.
    “A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.” --George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Gomez View Post
    The idea of firing throughout the horizontal line of presentation is a very important one. Most folks tend to shoot from retention and then from full extension, often over extending the gun during the process.

    For this clip, I backed away to be able to illustrate the movement of the gun. In reality, if the fight starts in contact you are much better served by continuing to drive forward and through your opponent, extending the gun as appropriate as range increases. The range gets very upset when I destroy their backers demoing stuff for videos! ;)

    Obviously, I didn't talk about any of this in this video but I will get around to it in a future piece.
    Paul, Tacmans statement wasnt directed at you, it was directed at another thread, in which people were saying that there was no need to move backwards....My statement was directed at the same thread. Sorry bout that...
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Gomez View Post
    The idea of firing throughout the horizontal line of presentation is a very important one. Most folks tend to shoot from retention and then from full extension, often over extending the gun during the process.

    For this clip, I backed away to be able to illustrate the movement of the gun. In reality, if the fight starts in contact you are much better served by continuing to drive forward and through your opponent, extending the gun as appropriate as range increases. The range gets very upset when I destroy their backers demoing stuff for videos! ;)

    Obviously, I didn't talk about any of this in this video but I will get around to it in a future piece.
    No offense intended, I know you are the expert on this stuff, but I can't quite see what you are suggesting. As you drive forward you'll perhaps be walking into someone who has fight left; perhaps a knife in hand or a gun in hand as well. I realize the goal
    is to overwhelm and unload a bunch up and down COM and have him drop at your feet, but aren't you going to be bumping right into the mass of your opponent, who if not dead might still slash you?* I sort of liked the way you backed in the vid-demo. You are still pounding them out rapid fire, but you leave space for him to drop and room for you to avoid harm. Comment please.
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    *As I suggested the other day to the fellow who said he'd punch someone with a knife, you risk walking into it.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    No offense intended, I know you are the expert on this stuff, but I can't quite see what you are suggesting. As you drive forward you'll perhaps be walking into someone who has fight left; perhaps a knife in hand or a gun in hand as well. I realize the goal
    is to overwhelm and unload a bunch up and down COM and have him drop at your feet, but aren't you going to be bumping right into the mass of your opponent, who if not dead might still slash you?* I sort of liked the way you backed in the vid-demo. You are still pounding them out rapid fire, but you leave space for him to drop and room for you to avoid harm. Comment please.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    *As I suggested the other day to the fellow who said he'd punch someone with a knife, you risk walking into it.
    Hop,
    The technique he is talking about is this: You extend your weapon farther as the distance from you to the target increases. So, if the BG is still close enough to slash you you would still be shooting from retention or maybe your elbow in your side, as you create distance the farther you extend until there is enough distance between you that you are at full extension/the BG is down. At least that's what I've been taught by my instructors.
    “A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.” --George Washington

  9. #23
    August 19, 1970 - June 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    As you drive forward you'll perhaps be walking into someone who has fight left; perhaps a knife in hand or a gun in hand as well. I realize the goal is to overwhelm and unload a bunch up and down COM and have him drop at your feet, but aren't you going to be bumping right into the mass of your opponent, who if not dead might still slash you?
    You were already in contact when the fight started. By covering up, you remain conscious and on your feet. This allows you to start mitigating him [by striking and manipulating him], which allows you control his limb nearest the tool you are trying to access.This allows you to access your gun and begin shooting him. As he falls away, you are able to extend the gun as needed.

    The general rule is: Once you have started applying pressure to the bad guy, you do not stop applying pressure until he is no longer attempting to apply pressure to you. If you are not applying pressure, then he gets the chance to regroup and begin applying pressure to you.

    I sort of liked the way you backed in the vid-demo. You are still pounding them out rapid fire, but you leave space for him to drop and room for you to avoid harm.
    The drill that was shown on film is just one piece of the overall problem. I would only back away after I had already had significant impact on his ability to present a lethal threat and, then, I would not move straight back, as he can always move faster forward than I can backward. Regardless, the movement of the gun would be the same, floating along the horizontal line as dictated by range to the threat and environment.

    Hope this helps. I will go more in depth on some of these ideas in future videos.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    *As I suggested the other day to the fellow who said he'd punch someone with a knife, you risk walking into it.[/QUOTE]

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Gomez View Post
    You were already in contact when the fight started. By covering up, you remain conscious and on your feet. This allows you to start mitigating him [by striking and manipulating him], which allows you control his limb nearest the tool you are trying to access.This allows you to access your gun and begin shooting him. As he falls away, you are able to extend the gun as needed.

    The general rule is: Once you have started applying pressure to the bad guy, you do not stop applying pressure until he is no longer attempting to apply pressure to you. If you are not applying pressure, then he gets the chance to regroup and begin applying pressure to you.



    The drill that was shown on film is just one piece of the overall problem. I would only back away after I had already had significant impact on his ability to present a lethal threat and, then, I would not move straight back, as he can always move faster forward than I can backward. Regardless, the movement of the gun would be the same, floating along the horizontal line as dictated by range to the threat and environment.

    Hope this helps. I will go more in depth on some of these ideas in future videos.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    *As I suggested the other day to the fellow who said he'd punch someone with a knife, you risk walking into it.
    [/QUOTE]

    Paul,
    So, was I right? Just wondering what your thoughts are on what I have been taught...
    “A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.” --George Washington

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    Paul. In the other thread the question was raised in regards to getting off the X by moving backwards or forwards. What myself and others tried to explain is that the "X" is a 360 degree animal. The location will dictate which way you can move i.e. between two parked cars, a narrow hallway, a narrow alley there is simply nowhere to go except forward or back so you must have the skills of firing while moving in these directions.

    It would be great to move laterally and create time and distance from the attack but in some situations there is simply nowhere to go. I totally agree once the aggression has started don't let up and if needed advance and close the distance while still hammering the BG.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  12. #26
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    Paul, you held the slide on a 9mm. If it was a .45 it would have ripped your hand apart!.LOL
    Semper Fi
    "Marines don't surrender-they win or die." from Brute

  13. #27
    August 19, 1970 - June 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crowbait View Post
    So, was I right? Just wondering what your thoughts are on what I have been taught...
    Pretty much. The gun needs to flow throughout drawstroke based on the environment and range to threat. This means that we move the gun out and back as needed. When we are dealing with the 0 to 5 feet problem, it is much more of a 'fighting' issue than a 'shooting' issue and everything we do has to reflect this.

    BkCo1,

    You got me! I used to do this demo with a 10mm but it blew off my left thumb. ;)

  14. #28
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    As always, your videos are detailed enough to explain your take & purpose while offering good points to work from.

    Thanks again, Paul.
    "Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Don't overlook the guard position of the left hand. Its got nothing to do with the gun but can keep you from getting your head knocked off. It also leaves the option of following a single shot to the belly with a hammer fist, head grab, and knee, just to make sure you made your point.
    When I'm working on my MA skills, one drill I like is striking while moving backward several steps; a blow per step. You can then either move forward into your opponent or gain a sec to pull a weapon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Gomez View Post
    I would only back away after I had already had significant impact on his ability to present a lethal threat and, then, I would not move straight back, as he can always move faster forward than I can backward.
    I'm puzzled about the question folks are asking about when that would be needed. What if you get one round off and the BG is still on his feet trying to snatch the gun with his left hand? Moving back lets you avoid that grab attempt, and gives you an option to kick the turkey off too. You can't get a good push kick in or a good stomp kick in starting from that close in.
    Kudos here, too, Paul. Your format is very accessible (as others indicated) in a bite-size highlight. The technique here is similar to one in the Suarez Close Quarter Gunfight course. As Hop says, one may go from the guard to a full extension - but the muzzle covers no highter than the opponent's lower body.
    I don't have real, first-hand gunfight experience. But I believe that my training incorporates wisdom from the streets. My training doesn't mix the fist-fight martial arts with the gun-fight ones. If I can get my gun into a close-quarter situation, then the fight goes from the fist to the gun phase except in the gravest of grave extremes The point is, you don't want to "shoot yourself in the foot" even if it is kicking "the turkey off".
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

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