Can not find the (mm V .40 S&W FBI Gun Fight?

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Thread: Can not find the (mm V .40 S&W FBI Gun Fight?

  1. #16
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    The FBI's problem was that they went to a rifle fight armed with handguns.
    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array 40Bob's Avatar
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    Actually, S&W had already been working on the caliber to be used by their pistol team by the time the FBI came to them.

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    A few things; first the 9mm Silvertip performed exactly as designed.

    Secondly, the 10mm was not the brainchild of the FBI.

    Thirdly, Smith&Wesson converted their existing 45 autoloaders to except the 10mm.

    And probably, and more importantly, the FBI absolutely dropped the ball initiating the confrontation. They had their handguns laying on the seats of the car, which, slid off in the floor during the sudden stop, and took precious time to retrieve.
    Another point is that the agents using revolvers, did not have them loaded with the 357 magnum that they were chambered for. If so, this would have sufficed quite well.
    They did not communicate their activity with the local police, so the police, thinking it was a gangland shooting, waited for it to be over before going in, hence absolutely no back up. As was noted, handguns don't work as well when going against a hi cap rifle.

    Another point of interest, is the 40 S&W is an identical ballistic twin of a cartridge over 100 years old, the 38-40.

    Congratulations FBI, you reinvented the wheel with taxpayer dollars.

    Alot of things went wrong, but caliber wasn't really the problem, it was application and preparation.
    40Bob and bmcgilvray like this.
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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Always thought it was interesting that the shootout (incorrectly) has been used to demonstrate the ineffectiveness of the 9mm, but they were actually hit more times with .38's - 3 head/neck shots and one chest shot which were all ineffective. Then the last 3 shots fired with a 38 were effective - 2 head shots on Matix and one to Platt's chest. No one faults the 38 for no having ended things sooner and it is still touted as a man stopper. Funny how back then the FBI assumed that handgun bullets had "evolved as far as they ever will".

    I think the statement that the 40 is a "solution to non-existent problem" and the like are forgetting history. Sure, now with the advancements in technology the performance of 9 mm ammo is on par with other rounds, but at the time, the only way or maybe the cheapest way to increase performance was to go with a bigger bullet and since there were already high capacity 9's out there they could see a firepower issue with lower capacity firearms. This is like criticizing the evolution of different sized car engines because we now have 6 cyl'ers that put out as much horsepower as V8's from years ago - were those V8's solutions to nonexistent problems? (Prius owners please ignore this last sentence )

    While the 38-40 is identical afa ballistics go, I wouldn't want to carry a semi-auto chambered for a 1.6" long cartridge.

  6. #20
    Member Array thedogfather's Avatar
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    My understanding is that the .40 was developed to fill the "void" between the 9mm and the .45ACP. The .40 offers more 'gusto' than the 9mm and more rounds in the magazine than the .45 ACP. The last I read, the .40 is the caliber of choice for the vast majority of our Nations State Police forces. I know it is in Washington State. The .40 caliber gained acceptance and rocketed to the top much like the .38 special did 100 some years ago. I apologize if I went off track. I'm not trying to hijack this thread but i didn't see a question in the original post. Just my .02.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    The 40 was actually developed when a sharp engineer realized the downloaded 10mm, could be loaded into a shorter case, which would enable it to fit in a 9mm sized gun. It was never intentionally planned.
    Hoganbeg and tacman605 like this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  8. #22
    Member Array Eichorn's Avatar
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    The handgun cartridges (9mm and .38+P) used in the Miami gun battle were clearly inadequate for the task at hand. They did not penetrate deeply enough to provide "immediate" incapacitation. Nor it seems, did they hold together well enough, given the large number of bullet fragments that hit Platt and Matix.

    There were many "issues" with the shootout and arguments could be made for just about anything. What is certain, is that Matix and Platt showed extreme motivation in their will to fight and to continue fighting with multiple, life threatening wounds. Just as the FBI agents showed a great deal of grit and bravery in dealing with a situation that quickly turned very bad.
    "Hell is truth seen too late."

  9. #23
    Ex Member Array oldrwizr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    Actually, S&W had already been working on the caliber to be used by their pistol team by the time the FBI came to them.
    And Glock was already working on a 10mm when they heard about the FBI contract with S&W. Being the master marketeer that he is, Gaston got hold of the cartridge specs for the .40S&W and with slight modifications turned his 10mm design into a .40 (he was able to use the same barrel since .40 = 10.16 mm) and actually beat S&W to the market with their own gun. Was it a smart move? Has Glock sold more 10's or 40's?

  10. #24
    Ex Member Array bullshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse View Post
    The question is a big one.
    No, I assure you it is not. Just ask the guy that got his car stolen if the caliber of his side arm would change the outcome.

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array txron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    The FBI's problem was that they went to a rifle fight armed with handguns.
    My thoughts exactly.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array 40Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The 40 was actually developed when a sharp engineer realized the downloaded 10mm, could be loaded into a shorter case, which would enable it to fit in a 9mm sized gun. It was never intentionally planned.
    I think I was confused with the .356 TSW.

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