Can not find the (mm V .40 S&W FBI Gun Fight?

This is a discussion on Can not find the (mm V .40 S&W FBI Gun Fight? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The question is a big one. We all should examine this question, from our own point of view. It is an important question. The .40 ...

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Thread: Can not find the (mm V .40 S&W FBI Gun Fight?

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    Member Array Scouse's Avatar
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    Can not find the (mm V .40 S&W FBI Gun Fight?

    The question is a big one.

    We all should examine this question, from our own point of view. It is an important question.

    The .40 S&W was invented to fill a need, in my my mind, a non existent one, the .45ACP does the same job, and it is here. And has been for over 100 years, low pressure, new bullets, it works.

    All of it to make the mess that the FBI Gun Fight turned out to be, the fault of a bullet!

    But no one has ever convinced me, and never will, it is where you put the bullets, as many as possible that counts, I like a lot of 9mm, you can pick what you please.

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    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse View Post
    The question is a big one.

    We all should examine this question, from our own point of view. It is an important question.

    The .40 S&W was invented to fill a need, in my my mind, a non existent one, the .45ACP does the same job, and it is here. And has been for over 100 years, low pressure, new bullets, it works.

    All of it to make the mess that the FBI Gun Fight turned out to be, the fault of a bullet!

    But no one has ever convinced me, and never will, it is where you put the bullets, as many as possible that counts, I like a lot of 9mm, you can pick what you please.


    Perhaps I'm missing it, but what's the question?

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    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse View Post
    The question is a big one.

    We all should examine this question, from our own point of view. It is an important question.

    The .40 S&W was invented to fill a need, in my my mind, a non existent one, the .45ACP does the same job, and it is here. And has been for over 100 years, low pressure, new bullets, it works.

    All of it to make the mess that the FBI Gun Fight turned out to be, the fault of a bullet!

    But no one has ever convinced me, and never will, it is where you put the bullets, as many as possible that counts, I like a lot of 9mm, you can pick what you please.
    The .40 was not a result of the FBI shootout, but penetration standards were. The bullet was not "at fault," the load was just too weak. One of the rounds hit the BG in the arm, entered the chest, and stopped just short of the Aorta (which, had it penetrated more, it would have incapacitate the BG).

    You can talk about shot placement all you want, but have someone point an inert training pistol at you, and look at where you would shoot if you aim COM... you are generally going to shoot through an arm to hit the heart/lungs. This is why the FBI made penetration standards.... The placement may be spot on, but you still have to go through one barrier (arm) to get to your target (chest).
    sgb, atctimmy and Eichorn like this.
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    This one time, at band camp......
    Secret Spuk and tacman605 like this.
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    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    The .40 S&W was invented to fill a need, in my my mind, a non existent one
    The FBI and gun fight statistics? Never heard of that. I have heard of FBI statistics and how many guns they loose over a year's time. The FBI must be something special to say the least......the 45ACP is the ideal pistol and yet our service men and women are now sent overseas with 9mm pistols? Secret service shake up? Hey....who do you want to listen to these days and would you like sugar or milk with those sugar pops? What's a 10mm? 357SIG? Made up for a niche? Fill a void? How about a 4.3L V6 that puts out the same HP as a 5.0L? Buy a Chevy or a Ford? Shot placement? Always good. Incapacitation on the first shot? Priceless! My last instructor pointed things out pretty frankly.....used to be interior shock was best......penetrate to depth and expand. Nowadays.......immediate blood loss is key. Bigger hole and through penetration seems to be the common thinking. Training? Shooting for the head only is risky.....everybody has apparently learned this since COM is till the standard. Body armor is now also available to just about everyone including criminals. You want to believe that the 40S&W is not necessary or not good enough to hold it's own? Keep shooting for the head or the groin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse View Post
    The question is a big one.

    We all should examine this question, from our own point of view. It is an important question.

    The .40 S&W was invented to fill a need, in my my mind, a non existent one, the .45ACP does the same job, and it is here. And has been for over 100 years, low pressure, new bullets, it works.

    All of it to make the mess that the FBI Gun Fight turned out to be, the fault of a bullet!

    But no one has ever convinced me, and never will, it is where you put the bullets, as many as possible that counts, I like a lot of 9mm, you can pick what you please.
    Think "coherency".
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    Member Array Scouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badey View Post
    The .40 was not a result of the FBI shootout, but penetration standards were. The bullet was not "at fault," the load was just too weak. One of the rounds hit the BG in the arm, entered the chest, and stopped just short of the Aorta (which, had it penetrated more, it would have incapacitate the BG).

    You can talk about shot placement all you want, but have someone point an inert training pistol at you, and look at where you would shoot if you aim COM... you are generally going to shoot through an arm to hit the heart/lungs. This is why the FBI made penetration standards.... The placement may be spot on, but you still have to go through one barrier (arm) to get to your target (chest).
    But the .40 short! was a direct result, Tommy Gun Campbell who designed it, did so to move the FBI's brain child, the 10 mil, into a more manageable physical size, because the 10mil could not be used by females, or small people, the S&W pistol designed for same (and not put out on tender) was A/ to big and B/ the magazines were rubbish, miss fed constantly. To add insult to injury, the frame was designed wrong.

    The FBI protocol was a great idea, bullets were finally designed for shooting people. Reference one round going through an arm, put enough out, you will hit good stuff.

    That whole shoot out was a cock up. But it was addressed in the end.

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    Scouse, what is the point of your post? Is it a lobby to get rid of the .40 S&W? Is it to change peoples mind about using .40 S&W ammo? Just what do you expect to accomplish since you didn't ask a question?
    "To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society" - Theodore Roosevelt


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    Member Array Scouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Think "coherency".
    My email address starts with mike1935, so as a Junior, Mike1956, be nice to old gentlemen!

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    Ex Member Array oldrwizr's Avatar
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    This is what he's referring to:

    FBI Miami shootout

    Not sure about the question, though.

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    Member Array Scouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cowbilly32 View Post
    Scouse, what is the point of your post? Is it a lobby to get rid of the .40 S&W? Is it to change peoples mind about using .40 S&W ammo? Just what do you expect to accomplish since you didn't ask a question?
    Believe it or not, I lost the place I wanted to post in, which was here some where! Thought a Mod might have redirected it.

    Being as we (Practical Pistols Inc) brought the first 10 Glock 17's into North America, Toronto 1984, I have watched the march of Glock Pistols for years, and as you ask, never thought much of the .40, way to much pressure.
    Definitly lost my way way with this post, but born in Liverpool, in 1935, survived the bombing, the WW11 raids, in a some what hectic life, been stabbed twice, just being around on my own two feet at 76 YOA is kind of nice!

    Nice to carry a Glock 19 every day as well.

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    Member Array Gary T's Avatar
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    Having read the entire thread, I'm not sure yet what the question is. I think the gist of the post was to point out:
    The problems w/ the "FBI Miami Shootout" were due not to the caliber of the guns used, but were instead due to poor tactics inadequate bullet performance. Development of the 40 S&W was unnecessary as these problems could have been fixed w/o a new caliber. These are not necessarily my thoughts, but what I think the poster was trying to say. If I'm wrong, so be it.

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    Member Array Scouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary T View Post
    Having read the entire thread, I'm not sure yet what the question is. I think the gist of the post was to point out:
    The problems w/ the "FBI Miami Shootout" were due not to the caliber of the guns used, but were instead due to poor tactics inadequate bullet performance. Development of the 40 S&W was unnecessary as these problems could have been fixed w/o a new caliber. These are not necessarily my thoughts, but what I think the poster was trying to say. If I'm wrong, so be it.
    You are not wrong! All big agency's, like the FBI, need a scapegoat, they can not be seen to be wrong, if the 9 MM Silver tip had gone an extra inch! all would have been fine! Sure.

    The fact that basic Police tactics had been deployed against two trained Soldiers, one with a rifle, that was the problem.

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    Scouse

    Had the FBI actually employed basic police tactics, things would have been different. The FBI didn't even know how to make a proper felony stop, never called for police backup and had at least one shotgun laying on the backseat UNLOADED!

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    For those of us who praise the 9mm & 38 ,,,, me included ,,,, you need to read
    this ,,,, BG1 was hit 6 times & BG2 was hit 12 times before they died.
    I knew about this incident ,,,, but this was the 1st time I read the report,,,
    thanks for the link oldrwizr

    Does make you think.

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