Good training that makes you think

This is a discussion on Good training that makes you think within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Was wondering if there are those of you that want to share some really good training storied, great instructors or such that helped you become ...

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Thread: Good training that makes you think

  1. #1
    Member Array lordofwyr's Avatar
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    Good training that makes you think

    Was wondering if there are those of you that want to share some really good training storied, great instructors or such that helped you become better at not only shooting, but with thinking things through also.

    Here is one I had years back.

    One of the training classes I was sent to by my department had the following drill, all carried out in as safe a manner as possible. There was a drill instructor practically glued to your back to ensure you do not screw up and hurt yourself or someone else.

    We were video taped for critique later, and believe me, the tapes don't lie.

    We were taken out of a closed room with loud music playing one at a time so we could not cheat and know what was coming up.

    You start unarmed - Drop and give 25 pushup. Jump up, run 25 yards and back, then 25 more pushups. This is to get the stress levels up and heart pumping.

    Now you are "Handed" two weapons by the instructor but not allowed to check their condition: your own pump shotgun in your hands and the instructor shoves your own pistol into your holster.

    Unknown to you, the shotgun only holds two rounds. The pistol is on an empty chamber with a full magazine.

    You run up to the shooting zone that has been occluded from your sight and have to engage all dangerous targets. There are five targets out of ten that have various weapons. The dangerous targets MUST be neutralized.

    Of course you engage with the shotgun at the farthest targets.

    Oops, you only had birdshot rounds (maybe you did not reload after dove hunting? Better aim well and hope the steel target drops. If not, you have to re-engage. Suddenly you are holding a stick that magically did not drop a steel target like you thought it would. If you do NOT throw it to the dirt you will be doing lots of punishment pushups later.

    Out comes the pistol. POP POP dead round.

    You have to clear the weapon and re-engage.

    Needless to say, there were lots of officers and deputies that stared blankly at the still standing steel targets when the birdshot failed to drop them. Many raised their hand with the dead round, waiting for someone to call "Range Safe", many just looked around dumbly, some stared blankly at the weapon.

    Meanwhile, the drill instructor is yelling at you to clear the weapon and get back on target or YOU WILL DIE!!!!

    It was an excellent come to Jesus check on how you may/will react when it goes bad, and it WILL go bad.

    Your wife/girlfriend/husband may have unloaded your gun feeling "unsafe" with a loaded gun in the house. Your weapon may fail at the worst possible time, you may face a bad guy that will not stop even though you just hit him with 000 Buck, and in a life or death situation, if you are not willing to toss aside a useless weapon into the dirt because it might get dirty, well, the gods may have selected you for the recycle bin already.

    It also showed us what years of improper training will do to good shooters, with something going wrong in the field and officers dying because they went right into their "where's the range master" mind set under stress.

    Anyway, there it is. If you can get training like this in a safe environment, get it, because it changes the way that you think and react.

    Any other stories that can teach us from your experiences?
    Fortune Favors the Bold!

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  3. #2
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    I think range safety and practices has killed a lot of GGs in the field.
    First Sgt, ANGLICO and lordofwyr like this.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

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    Distinguished Member Array ericb327's Avatar
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    Sounds like a good class for experienced intermediate shooters.
    For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. (Sun Tzu) The Art of War

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  5. #4
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    I was taught three VERY important acronyms by a well known instructor, and they have become the basis of MY approach to Defensive Handgun training and tactics:

    1) Wyatt Protocol (F.A.S.T.)
    Fight (Fight)
    Assess (Do I need to fight anymore?)
    Scan (Do I need to fight anyone else?)
    Top-Off (Prepare to fight again)

    2) M.O.V.E.M.E.N.T.
    M = Move out of the way of incoming fire.
    O = Off the line of attack.
    V = Vector the angle of movement.
    E = Evade incoming blows and blades.
    M = Make it harder to hit and injure you.
    E = Exit the kill zone.
    N = Neutralize the threat.
    T = Take cover and scan 361 degrees.

    3) M.O.V.E.
    M = Motionless
    O = Operators
    V = Ventilate
    E = Easily
    lordofwyr likes this.
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

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    First Sgt. I have heard and practice two of those had not heard of MOVEMENT will start using it though.

    As far as training stories one of my first tactical classes involved three shooters one prone, one kneeling, one standing one behind the other firing at three targets downrange. At the reload you had to change spots. You had to remember to roll out to the left or right and not simply stand straight up or it would be a really bad day.
    The same class involved leap frogging back while providing cover for your fellow team member. We started out on opposite sides of the range and slowly moved closer together until the drill started side by side. Again you better have your self in the zone or you would move directly into your partners line of fire.

    Some of the tactics and techniques I learned then I still use and teach today.
    lordofwyr likes this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  7. #6
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    0-5FT Gunfighting with Gabe Suarez is the most eye-opening training course I have taken.

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    Member Array G26Raven's Avatar
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    We did a Simmunitions scenario where I entered a darkened apartment to confront a violent wife beater who was abusing my "sister". When I entered the darkened room where my "sister" was yelling, my "sister" was being threatened with a rubber knife and ran to me. I had my flashlight in my left hand and she grabbed my arm as the attacker approached and I backed up. I drew my weapon as the attacker approached and fired three shots as I fell on my butt. All three shots hit, but I have no memory of getting a sight picture with the pistol.
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  9. #8
    Member Array rick21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    0-5FT Gunfighting with Gabe Suarez is the most eye-opening training course I have taken.
    Suarez Force On Force class was the same for me. Everything I thought I knew was wrong. 0-5 in on my soon to do list.

  10. #9
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Force On Force showed me everything I have learned in other Suarez's classes worked as I was told they would. Roger Phillips Point Shooting Progression class was my eye opener. But have not done 0-5, I do think it would be a good class to take. As most situations will be in your face type action and you will find you are behind before you ever start. Meaning you need to effect his OODA loop to give you time to start your action. I think 0-5 would cover that.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  11. #10
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    I have taken away something from every training session that I have done.

    First Sgt..I havent heard of this. Do me a favor and PM me a link. Thanks Bro....

    2) M.O.V.E.M.E.N.T.
    M = Move out of the way of incoming fire.
    O = Off the line of attack.
    V = Vector the angle of movement.
    E = Evade incoming blows and blades.
    M = Make it harder to hit and injure you.
    E = Exit the kill zone.
    N = Neutralize the threat.
    T = Take cover and scan 361 degrees

  12. #11
    Member Array HandgunWorld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    0-5FT Gunfighting with Gabe Suarez is the most eye-opening training course I have taken.
    I'm in 0-5ft Gunfighting this weekend! Just completed the first day, you're absolutely correct! It changes your thinking completely. For one, if you think your draw is fast, it's not. Have someone stand 5 feet away with a training knife or airsoft pistol drawn on you and yours in your holster and see who wins.

    Day 2 tomorrow. I'm having fun, but exhausted.
    Bob Mayne
    HandgunWorld Podcast
    www.handgunworld.com
    Suarez International Instructor

  13. #12
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Bob we need a AAR after your 2 days of learning. Sounds like you are learning a gun is not always what you need in the fight for your life.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  14. #13
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    I don't have the training experience that some of you do, but I have had a little (and continue to seek more), and I'd like to share one very important lesson learned:

    "Train like you'd fight."

    That may seem obvious to many - but to the newbie, it's less clear.

    With the growing popularity of legal concealed carry and "training classes," many newcomers to concealed carry sign up for various "training classes," and arrive on-site with gear that's not what they'd usually use - and clothing not what they normally wear.

    Some say that this is not important: that as long as you get close enough, that it'll be OK. I read such statements online, and it actually seemed logical to me. After all, just how different can it be, right?

    One single incident that occurred to a classmate, at my first ever training class, convinced me otherwise.

    This gentleman started off the morning well enough, but as we progressed to more advanced techniques in the afternoon, as fatigue started to set in, too, he started to index, repeatedly, his cell phone, on emergency reloads.

    That's pretty hilarious, at the range or in a class setting.

    It'd be death in a real gunfight.

    I leave my phone, on "silent," with the rest of my range gear at the staging area.

    But I never attend a class without a mock cell phone at my waist, in an exact copy of the carrier that I EDC. I've yet to index my cell phone in a reload of any type, but I don't want my first time to be when I'm in the fight of my life.

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