For you guys that did defensive training class - Page 3

For you guys that did defensive training class

This is a discussion on For you guys that did defensive training class within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; ^ True, the skills should be transferable - what you learn on one, you should be able to extrapolate/interpolate to another. However, it's just as ...

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  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ True, the skills should be transferable - what you learn on one, you should be able to extrapolate/interpolate to another.

    However, it's just as true that every gun is different, and unless you use a copy of your carry gun to train with, you are going to incorporate variables.

    In your class, nwbackpacker, you said that those using smaller carry guns and concealed IWB holsters had a "hard time." But what needs to be said is also that this is playing to their reality: these people do not use a war-belt to support a full-sized handgun riding in an OWB holster in their daily lives. In my view, it's better that they be awkward and fall apart a bit in training, so that they can learn to push through these failure points.

    Blisters from texturing? Will this person face a 600-round count day, in his usual line of work? Or is it more important to him that, should his gun become wet from rain or slick from blood that he can still hold on to it in a positive manner? Again, this is playing one reality against another - the end-user must figure out what's important, and train accordingly. [ The trouble that some of your fellow shooters experienced in low-light may not entirely be attributable to the lack of night-sights on their pistols...it could be a combination of equipment and technique (including marksmanship fundamentals). ]

    Don't get me wrong, though. To me, it's important to train towards "my reality." The realities of my daily life. And this will necessarily be different to another person's.

    At the same time, thought, I agree with you, nwbackpacker, in that it's very important for the student to train with a goal in mind. Your example above illustrated that very well, an I'll support it with my own. For the past week, I attended a series of training classes which spanned the "beginner" to "intermediate" handgun manipulations levels. For the first set of classes, I was comfortable enough with the skill-set that I went concealed, using my daily-carry setup, when the instructor allowed us to do so. Fro the second, advanced, class, despite permission from the instructor, I decided to shoot the entire class from an "open" setup so that I could, just as you did above, focus specifically on the skills/techniques being taught, without needing to expend extra thought/energy to clear my concealment clothing, etc. My plan is to repeat that second portion in the near future, so that I can not only reinforce those newly acquired skills but also to, again, work towards my reality: incorporating my daily carry gear.


  2. #32
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    As to doing a class from the open or concealed carry, I do everything, training and practice, from the conceal carry just like I EDC. Whether I shoot just one shot or a burst it is done from the draw under concealment, most often with movement on my part. By doing so moving the shirt to draw is now just part of the draw stroke. I'm not sure if I was to draw without my cover garment that I still would not move to remove the shirt, it's just that much of a habit.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  3. #33
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ I know that I do - the same as you, that is: that the draw stroke is so ingrained that my support hand (if I'm allowed to use it) is "pulling shirt," even if I'm going from an open-carry setup.

    For me, I'm simply in a state, now, where I'm somewhere between the skill level of a "beginning" and an "intermediate" shooter. I know that I still have a lot of basic skills to master and ingrain, and therefore am conscious about adding too much complexity to the learning equation. For me, I like to learn such methods in as simplistic of a way as possible, to insure proper technique and safety, and to then gradually layer additional concerns that, finally, work towards my everyday reality.

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Always take at least a second firearm with you to a class. You don't want to be "that guy" if the instructor needs to help with a serious failure. Having said that, I'd forget the 23 and take the other two. Shoot the 19 as the primary, but work the sub-compact in as well. This will also show you how they compare.

    I strongly recommend you carry only the 23 or 19 for a couple months at some point and push the sub-compact back for only those times where you need to carry something that small. For me, and many I know, the trade offs are not worth it, which will hopefully show after a few days in a class.

    Enjoy it and try not to overthink it. I'd opt for the 19 over the 23 as it's easier shooting and cheaper. 1,000 rounds or more in 2 or 3 days, the 23 may get fatiguing.
    WonderBra likes this.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  5. #35
    New Member Array chancesR's Avatar
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    Most facilities want you have a 9mm or larger. I would train with a full size weapon. You can always take what you learn and practice with other guns. It would be impractible to shoot 600 rds through a small carry weapon like a LCP or a 2" revolver. Hard on the gun and hard on your hand. Those guns were built more for carry and limited shooting. A course will put more rds through a gun than the average joe-blow shoots in a life time.

  6. #36
    Member Array WonderBra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Always take at least a second firearm with you to a class. You don't want to be "that guy" if the instructor needs to help with a serious failure. Having said that, I'd forget the 23 and take the other two. Shoot the 19 as the primary, but work the sub-compact in as well. This will also show you how they compare.

    I strongly recommend you carry only the 23 or 19 for a couple months at some point and push the sub-compact back for only those times where you need to carry something that small. For me, and many I know, the trade offs are not worth it, which will hopefully show after a few days in a class.

    Enjoy it and try not to overthink it. I'd opt for the 19 over the 23 as it's easier shooting and cheaper. 1,000 rounds or more in 2 or 3 days, the 23 may get fatiguing.
    I've highly respect Jon's comments and this one is no different.
    I was fortunate enough to attend a MAG40 class last June and I echo his comments.
    One student had to go through 3 pistols (not mentioning model, but it started with an X and ended with M).

    As others have said, it is more important what you learn since it can all be applicable to any equipment. Just be sure to apply the same techniques you learn to those other equipment.
    I don't normally carry my Glock 19, but I'm glad I used it for my class. It was a long day with a lot of shooting and mostly what I learned were stances, strategy and one adjustment to my pistol grip. The others things I learned were not gun-specific.
    "One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."
    -- Thomas Jefferson, Letter to George Washington, 1796. ME 9:341

  7. #37
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ Echoing this sentiment - in being an avid student of many instructors/schools, I agree wholeheartedly.

    Bring a back-up, if not two.

    Any gun can fail. It doesn't matter if the gun cost $200, $400, or even ten times the latter. It's a mechanical object, it can and will fail. Attend enough larger training classes, and you'll have seen virtually everything fail: often in the strangest possible ways.

    Same goes with gear. It's always good to have a backup.

  8. #38
    Member Array RockinGlock's Avatar
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    Train with what you carry!

  9. #39
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    Well guys I am back and very tired. The class was awesome. I learned alot and I know now what I need to work on at my range sessions. I used the G23 for the most part of the class and used the G19 for a little more than 1/3 of the class. I never did use the G27 because Mr Vickers is not a big fan of them. There were alot of great shooters in the class and I was impressed with all the new gear that is out there. I was the old guy out there and it showed. Over all I am happy with my shooting and all the drill work. I did use my every day carry gear and I think one other guy did also. I did learn that LA Vickers is the MAN.
    Have Fun and Shoot Straight !!

  10. #40
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    I would take the pistol you can hit best with. Here in my state, records are kept of your range performance. In your best interest.....take the one that gets you good points. For what it's worth.

  11. #41
    VIP Member Array TWO GUNS's Avatar
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    One other thing I learned. I shoot my G19 better. I could not believe how much better I shoot it under pressure. The G23 shot well when I was shooting slowly but when things started heating up my shooting just fell apart . I am very happy I took this class.
    Last edited by TWO GUNS; July 25th, 2012 at 12:48 PM. Reason: spelling
    Have Fun and Shoot Straight !!

  12. #42
    Distinguished Member Array Jason Storm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TWO GUNS View Post
    Did you use your carry gun or some thing else for the class. I am taking a gun training class this month and still don't know what gun to use. Glock 23, Glock 19 or Glock 27. Shoot the G19 a little quicker, I like the trigger on the G23 more but G27 carries the best.
    I used my H&K USP .40 that I usually carry in cooler climates b/c of its large size. And out of the 2 handguns that I own, I shoot this more accurately. Carry the one that you carry and that you shoot better with. At the 7 hour CC class, I carried my USP on a strong side belt mounted leather holster under a vest.

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array TWO GUNS's Avatar
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    I am going to try to practice more with my G23 to see if I can shoot it as well as the G19. I just feel a little better when I carry the 40 caliber. I know it is just in my head but I don't feel as comfortable with the 9mm.
    Have Fun and Shoot Straight !!

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