Traffic stop goes bad. What can we learn from it?

Traffic stop goes bad. What can we learn from it?

This is a discussion on Traffic stop goes bad. What can we learn from it? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So as not to hijack the original thread I started a new one. Deadly shootout after routine traffic stop Video of police officer shot in ...

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Thread: Traffic stop goes bad. What can we learn from it?

  1. #1
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    Traffic stop goes bad. What can we learn from it?

    So as not to hijack the original thread I started a new one.

    Deadly shootout after routine traffic stop

    Video of police officer shot in Fortville Indiana - YouTube

    First prayers out for the officer glad he will be ok.

    I am not saying the officer did anything wrong nor am I glorifying what the suspect did I am merely using this as a training opprotunity for all of us.

    I realize as a CC holder we won't be making traffic stops but for the sake of argument lets say this is the BG that we are dealing with in whatever the situation may be. From what I saw he comes from a seated position to a solid two hand hold into an extended locked position and begins firing at a moving target, if the officer was in fact out of the car.
    He begins to advance while firing in a steady cadence never letting up advancing on an armed police officer. He did not hesitate nor was he intimidated by the fact that this was a police officer or that he ran the risk of being shot himself. The bad guy negotiates around the car and continues to fire striking the officer three times out of 12 until he either runs out of ammo, I could not tell if the gun he was holding was at slidelock or not, or is satisfied the officer is down. I do not know what type of training the suspect had but this is the type of bad guy that you better be ready to defend against.

    Let's look at some things the suspect did and ask yourself first could you do the same thing and how could you defend against it?

    The suspect attacked with hesitation. I am not trying to start an argument but this is what myself and others have preached. All it takes is one dedicated individual to end your life. This guy was determined to get out of there and if that meant he had to take the officers life so be it. He was not intimidated by the badge or gun or the prospect of getting shot himself. Whether this determination was fueled by drugs, alcohol or just his mindset is not really a big factor the officer was blocking his way to freedom just as a CC holder would be in the middle of a robbery should they decide to act.

    The suspect had done this type of shooting before. You simply do not pick up a gun and do the things he did without training to do it. I am not saying he attended a formal school but I assure you he was an experienced shooter. He had a solid two hand grip, fired in a steady cadence while negotiating around the car in low light, striking a moving target with 1/3 of his rounds.

    Finally he did not quit. The bad guy kept firing until the threat to him was down. He did not fire two and run he shot the officer to the ground, then and only then did he disengage. I do not know if the officer even had time to draw his weapon or even return fire but in this case it made no difference to the suspect he attacked with determination and a sole purpose of putting the officer down. This is the guy you have to train for guys not the thug who runs at the sight of a gun or an alarm sign in your yard.

    Again I am thankful that the man upstairs was protecting the officer and he was wearing a vest. I am not "rooting for the bad guy". I am simply using this as an example of the type of criminal we may face one day.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013


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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Sometimes, despite our best efforts there is nothing we can do. I didn't see the video, but I can say with certainty that there is never anything "routine" about a traffic stop.
    Even with the best of training, a situation may come about in such a way that we do not have time to utilize it. In these types of occupations, whether military operations or LE, you just have to accept that fact of your life, that you are doing the Tango with death, and you hope you can find a seat before the music stops.
    pgrass101 and The Old Anglo like this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    Senior Member Array Sig35seven's Avatar
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    When someone acts that fast in a surprise attack there is little you can do. Glad the officer survived after that many shots fired.
    "Confidence is food for the wise man but liquor for the fool"

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    Absolutely correct guys. Sometimes you just have to ride the bull and look for a good spot to get off.

    The main thing I was trying to get across was that not all bad guys are intimidated by a gun, badge, SWAT or a CC holder so you have to train for the worst case scenario.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    It certainly all happened in seconds...I'm thinking the officer had the presence of mind to MOVE when the BG jumped out and began firing. I would almost bet that's what kept the hits (3 out of 12) down. Didn't sound like he returned any fire whatsoever. That is a bit baffling. But, lesson to me is movement is the key in a situation like that. Just thinking outloud here...
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

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    I agree 1st Sgt. I would like to read the reports on this and also the history on the shooter.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    Interesting subject.

    My opinion is... The first stop was done correctly, and we saw the perp was at the disadvantage. He couldnt see the officer, and had he attacked at that point the Officer would have had the protection of his vehical, and the option of backing away.

    The second stop was done wrong. The officers car position allowed the perp to keep track of the officers position, and allowed him a clear field of fire.

    I'm not knocking the individual officer. Just some poor tactics on his part. Complacency kills in police work. No matter what the task, no matter how mundane or boring... Police Officers, and security personell must stay on their tactical "A" game at all times. Civilian CCW's have the built in tactical advantage of surprise. (Unless of course they are wearing a ccw badge or sash).

    IMO This vidio should be used in police and security training on proper car stops.

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    Member Array nerdyvirgin's Avatar
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    dont know if this was posted before but here is another video of a routine traffic stop gone bad. LiveLeak.com - Video Released of Fatal Ark Officer Shooting
    A friend will help you move. A real friend will help move the bodies.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Finally he did not quit. The bad guy kept firing until the threat to him was down. He did not fire two and run he shot the officer to the ground, then and only then did he disengage. I do not know if the officer even had time to draw his weapon or even return fire but in this case it made no difference to the suspect he attacked with determination and a sole purpose of putting the officer down. This is the guy you have to train for guys not the thug who runs at the sight of a gun or an alarm sign in your yard.
    The greatest lessons I see in this scenario are: Never, ever quit (the LEO's action); and never, ever stop fighting until the threat is stopped (the perp's action).
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  10. #10
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    Officer Fox's cruiser will still moving when the shooter jumped out of his Volvo, gun in hand. Why did the officer stop? He could've plowed over the shooter and if he missed, flip it in reverse with a sharp turn of the wheel to the right so the cruiser would swing out hopefully keeping the shooter at a distance. The second video, chit, what can you do? That's disturbing to watch police officers being attacked.
    oneshot likes this.

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    First off, I'm very glad the officer will survive and the loser did not! The only thing that I can see that the officer might have been able to do was run that sucker down as soon as he opened the door and started to shoot. The officer was clearly at a disadvantage with how the vehicles were positioned, but in a ramming scenario he had the upper hand IMO.
    oneshot and Secret Spuk like this.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    A first-rate man with a third-rate gun is far more effective, in every practical sense, than the other way around. This says a lot...

    I think our BG was as you said trained. The only thing I can recommend is to be the first rate man, it is you only chance at survival....

    Edit To add: This might be a good time to discuss mindset, and what type of bad guy you might be. The violence displayed by the BG was greater than that of the Police officer. So if we can get into the mind of the criminal and understand the violence, we may be able to defend against it, and maybe even harness some of that rage when necessary.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

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    It's hard to tell if the officer was still seated when the bad guy started shooting, but if he was, I'm thinking he should have hit him with the Crown Vic!

    Hope the officer recovers quickly.

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    Yes one option was to run him down if given the opprotunity but my question is/was how would you react when facing someone like this?

    This is the type guy who is your worst nightmare, would you be up to the challenge?
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Yes one option was to run him down if given the opprotunity but my question is/was how would you react when facing someone like this?

    This is the type guy who is your worst nightmare, would you be up to the challenge?
    We both know that on any given day a BG can end us. That being said, I have put in a lot of time training and preparing for someone like this. I think Im up for the challenge. This is a fight for life, his and mine, I would bring the fight to him. Whether I survive or not, Im not sure, but there would be a fight.....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

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