Yeager video on carrying with an empty chamber

This is a discussion on Yeager video on carrying with an empty chamber within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I train myself to behave and operate as though every firearm (including mine) is ALWAYS loaded, chambered, safeties off, and waiting for a pull of ...

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  1. #76
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    I train myself to behave and operate as though every firearm (including mine) is ALWAYS loaded, chambered, safeties off, and waiting for a pull of the trigger. I drill it into my head constantly. It is my first assumption on seeing any firearm. It's no coincidence that this parallels one of the Four Basic Rules. Simple training makes for strong training because that's how the brain works.

    An empty chamber doesn't improve my safety, it conflicts with my training and therefore presents a hazard. God forbid I ever have to draw in self-defense, but there will be nothing for me to waste time or brain cells on besides putting the muzzle on target and pulling the trigger.

    If you TRULY want to make racking the slide part of your draw, then you need to rack the slide EVERY TIME you pull the gun out of its holster. That means when you disarm to go to bed, take the gun out to clean it or show it to a friend, whatever. If you EVER pull the gun out without racking the slide, you are defeating your own attempts at "automation" by introducing a variable. Something to consider: You're approached as you're leaving the grocery store or mall, with your hands full of bags (a perfectly feasible scenario). Most people don't realize that you will actually have to MAKE your hands release the bags; they won't do it "instinctively." The biggest delay is not in dropping what you're holding, it's in making the conscious decision to tell your hands to do it.
    tcox4freedom and tacman605 like this.
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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterB View Post
    You mean to tell me that a ND with a gun that has a round chambered is impossible unless it can be blamed on the user?
    No, but I have never heard of a loaded gun going off by it's self. I have heard of a gun dropped going off, i have heard of a gun being pocket carried without a holster (in a pocket with car keys) going off. I have heard of someone hanging their Glock on a hook in the bathroom stall going off....but I have never heard of a gun sitting in a gun safe going off.

    Is it possible, yes....it's also possible to get a concealed carry permit for New York City
    OD* and DontTreadOnI like this.
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  4. #78
    Ex Member Array NotMallNinja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    Is it possible, yes....it's also possible to get a conceled carry permit for New York City

  5. #79
    Member Array MisterB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    No, but I have never heard of a loaded gun going off by it's self. I have heard of a gun dropped going off, i have heard of a gun being pocket carried without a holster (in a pocket with car keys) going off. I have heard of someone hanging their Glock on a hook in the bathroom stall going off....but I have never heard of a gun sitting in a gun safe going off.

    Is it possible, yes....it's also possible to get a conceled carry permit for New York City
    Going off in a safe is far different than a gun being carried on the human body as it goes throughout the day being bumped and jarred, regardless of the holster being used. Yes, the odds are low, but admittedly possible. The odds of ever actually needing to draw a CCW weapon are also low, and yet we still carry just in case. My end game here is to protect myself and my family, not increasing my chances of harm by shooting myself in the foot, no pun intended...

  6. #80
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Carrying "unchambered", IN MY OPINION, is simply a matter of the carrier having a lack of understanding of their weapon, having a lack of training, having a lack of competence, all of which result in having a lack of confidence in their own abilities to be safe. The position of saying most ND's occur with individuals who carry their weapon chambered, is a mute point. I'm not interested in "most individuals"...I'm concerned with only one individual..MYSELF!!! Could a ND happen, sure... Is it likely to happen, most definitely NOT! I'll take the chance of making a mistake vs the loss of time or worse, when needing my weapon and having to stop/remember to rack the slide.

    For those that are proponents of carrying "without one in the chamber", how many have a military background? Just curious. I know there are many of us here in the forums that have military backgrounds, and I'd almost bet to a man, that if any of them ever found out that one of their unit members was carrying an unchambered weapon in a kill or be killed environment, they would most probably have a "hissy fit" and that's putting it mildly. Oh, I can hear the pea brains turning and saying, "but this is not a kill or be killed environment"...Well I submit to you that if today's world isn't a kill or be killed environment when it comes the time that you need your weapon in a self defense moment, then just exactly what is it? It certainly isn't a game of Cowboys and Indians, that's for sure. So if it's not a kill or be killed environment, why are you carrying?

    Those that carry unchambered say, "oh, I can rack and be ready to rock and roll and only lose milleseconds"...Ever hear the old saying "Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenandes"? I submit to you, that if I can attain any semblance of an advantage by being ready to rock and roll upon presentation, then I shall do so. Those that say to themselves, awww, it's not "that much" of an advantage, are simply whitewashing the moment. Stress factors will be present in a life or death situation, and IF I can give myself one less thing to think about (racking a slide or even releasing a safety), then that allows me just that much more time to concentrate on the situation at hand....which is PROTECTING MYSELF AND MY LOVED ONES BY SURVIVING THE FIGHT...

    As for the Yeager haters...Everyone is entitled to their opinion...If you are forming your opinion based on "others opinions", then I challenge you to train with Yeager and form your own rather than letting others influence the opinion which you espouse, which in this case is second hand or worse. Yeager offers a money back guarantee to anyone, ANYONE, who trains with him and is not satisfied with the classes. All you have to do is stand up in front of your training mates and tell exactly why you aren't satisfied. Now, if you have the kahunas, and you have that guarantee, what's stopping you from training with Yeager? Ohhhhhh, you say he's unsafe because he allows another instructor to be down range while the student(s) is performing a live fire drill. I'll speak from a bit of PERSONAL EXPERIENCE here. I've trained with Yeager and Jay Gibson (the photographer downrange). I would challenge anyone on here to train with either one, and not come away with respect for their knowledge and their methods and their attention to safety. Yes...Jay was downrange (about 3 feet to the side of MY target), while I and others were performing live fire drills. Did it concern me...sure...did I refuse to do the drills...NO...because I had enough confidence in my competency and my weapon handling to execute my drill objective in a safe manner. Yeager and all of his instructors, encourage their students to have open minds when they come to Tactical Response for training. They encourage their students to also train with other well known instructors. Yeager and his instructors train with other instructors yearly, some of the best in the business, and also have other instructors that come to Tactical Response to train with Yeager and his crew. Seems to me, IF his methods were soooo "off the cuff", that "REPUTABLE" instructors would shy away from training with him...Just sayin....

    Hey...those that carry unchambered, do as you wish. All I know is I certainly wouldn't want you backing me in any situation which required instantaneous actions, for fear YOU would be a day late and a millesecond short in providing the necessary additional lead that might be required. JMO
    OD*, tacman605, Harryball and 2 others like this.
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  7. #81
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    Haven't read all the responses, but it seems like there is a theme here. Those in favor of carrying a round in the chamber point to user error as being the reason why a ND could occur, lack of confidence on the part of the person unwilling to carry chambered, and lack of training. Seems like you are willing to point out user error, but unwilling to accept that the guns we all carry around are imperfect tools, made by imperfect human beings. Guns are sent in for repair constantly. You mean to tell me that a ND with a gun that has a round chambered is impossible unless it can be blamed on the user? Bull! I guess ignorance is bliss, until your imperfect gun malfunctions and blows off your manhood.

    MisterB is you will go back and read all the responses you will see that the statement has been made that unless there is an actual mechanical breakage, manufacturing defect or something similiar that a ND/AD is the fault of the operator. Yes guns are tools made by people but if you will research I believe you will find that a very, very, large percentage of all ND/AD are caused by operator error and not a mechanical defect in the firearm.

    I have been carrying a gun professionally so to speak for over 30 years and have had two ND's both my fault. One was a S&W revolver which I dumped the rounds but failed to count them or clear the cylinder, they are famous for having a round hang up on the grips, and the second was on the range with an HK P7. The P7 squeeze cocker is designed that once you depress the cocker with a normal firing grip it has a factory trigger pull of just over 2 pounds. Well I squeexed and as I did my finger also squeezed on a very light trigger sending a round into the berm next to the target.
    The point being modern firearms don't really have that many mechanical issues that will lead to a ND/AD as stated most if not all can be traced back to someone doing something that places there finger or other object on the bang switch which in turn makes it go boom.

    A firearm with a round in the chamber, properly holstered and left alone until needed will not become possessed and discharge on it's own. Here both rifle and handgun are loaded 24/7. Weapons are required to be carried all the time. I just walked to the chow hall with my 9mm machine pistol stuck in the pocket of my shorts. It had a round chambered and the safety was even off, it is DA, and nothing happened.

    Carry how you want I will say again not my life, but do not preach how you are just as prepared, can get the gun in action just as fast as someone who carries a round in the chamber it simply will not happen. Everyday there are millions of folks who chamber a round, holster there weapon, wear it all day and not a thing goes wrong.
    OD*, bigdog44 and 40Bob like this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  8. #82
    VIP Member Array TWO GUNS's Avatar
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    Always have one in the pipe.
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  9. #83
    Ex Member Array NotMallNinja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by First Sgt View Post
    For those that are proponents of carrying "without one in the chamber", how many have a military background? Just curious. I know there are many of us here in the forums that have military backgrounds, and I'd almost bet to a man, that if any of them ever found out that one of their unit members was carrying an unchambered weapon in a kill or be killed environment, they would most probably have a "hissy fit" and that's putting it mildly.
    During my first OIF deployment our unit carried with a round chambered at all times, even on our "friendly" FOB as well as on other FOBs. However, most units did not. In fact, there were clearing barrels on most FOBs that require one to drop the magazine, eject the chambered round, and squeeze the trigger in the clearing barrel before one can proceed further onto the FOB. One of the first things units did was post clearing barrels at entry control points and in front of dining facilities shortly after the fall of Baghdad once the FOBs were established. Many a career was ruined at those clearing barrels.
    Last edited by NotMallNinja; August 30th, 2012 at 09:54 AM. Reason: changed plural to singular

  10. #84
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    Many a career was ruined at those clearing barrels.

    Ain't that the truth. At the bazaar on Embassy row in Kabul a M/Sgt came up to the barrel, racked the slide, pointed it in the barrel with a bang to follow. He then looked at the weapon dropped the mag and pulled the trigger again in the barrel with the same results.

    Load it, rack it, check it, holster it and leave the damn thing alone until you need to shoot something or someone.

    On a side note I guess Armyman is waiting for a memo from his commander before he answers the questions or the line is really long at Pizza Hut.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  11. #85
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    So once you understand firearms, you train as you should to be responsible, and gain confidence, then watch all the training videos around how fast an attacker can move on you within 21 feet. Seconds! Getting a gun from the holster to ready for an experienced person is hard enough. Now add a racking under stress and the question is why even carry at that point.

    Guns do not fire themselves so the fear of a ND when properly holstered is just not valid.The only valid reason for not having one in the chamber would be a gun not holstered fumbling in a pocket with keys or tucked in a belt like a gangster and that IMO is not proper carry anyhow. CCW Revoked!
    40Bob likes this.
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  12. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    I have been carrying a gun professionally so to speak for over 30 years and have had two ND's both my fault. One was a S&W revolver which I dumped the rounds but failed to count them or clear the cylinder, they are famous for having a round hang up on the grips, and the second was on the range with an HK P7. The P7 squeeze cocker is designed that once you depress the cocker with a normal firing grip it has a factory trigger pull of just over 2 pounds. Well I squeexed and as I did my finger also squeezed on a very light trigger sending a round into the berm next to the target.
    The point being modern firearms don't really have that many mechanical issues that will lead to a ND/AD as stated most if not all can be traced back to someone doing something that places there finger or other object on the bang switch which in turn makes it go boom.

    A firearm with a round in the chamber, properly holstered and left alone until needed will not become possessed and discharge on it's own. Here both rifle and handgun are loaded 24/7. Weapons are required to be carried all the time. I just walked to the chow hall with my 9mm machine pistol stuck in the pocket of my shorts. It had a round chambered and the safety was even off, it is DA, and nothing happened.
    The bold part is why I prefer Condition 3 carry....to protect others from the possibility I might do something stupid or careless. Although I've been around firearms my entire life, I've never had an ND. I live by the four rules. This doesn't mean I'll never have an ND. Tacman is obviously well experienced with firearms yet has had two NDs...although I don't see a whole lot of negligence in HK P7 scenario. I want to guarantee I never have to face the consequences of an ND while carrying yet still provide myself with an effective SD tool that will be sufficient in many scenarios. My carry firearm is far from my only defensive option in a SD scenario.

    I'm OK with the fact I'm handicapping myself against certain SD scenarios but I will also never be fodder for the anti-gun nuts. I'm well aware I don't have one in the chamber and am prepared to act accordingly if I don't have that split second to rack the slide. As has been stated many times already, it comes down to personal preference and the importance of training under your preferred option can't be understated.

  13. #87
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3wggl View Post
    The bold part is why I prefer Condition 3 carry....to protect others from the possibility I might do something stupid or careless. Although I've been around firearms my entire life, I've never had an ND. I live by the four rules. This doesn't mean I'll never have an ND. Tacman is obviously well experienced with firearms yet has had two NDs...although I don't see a whole lot of negligence in HK P7 scenario. I want to guarantee I never have to face the consequences of an ND while carrying yet still provide myself with an effective SD tool that will be sufficient in many scenarios. My carry firearm is far from my only defensive option in a SD scenario.

    I'm OK with the fact I'm handicapping myself against certain SD scenarios but I will also never be fodder for the anti-gun nuts. I'm well aware I don't have one in the chamber and am prepared to act accordingly if I don't have that split second to rack the slide. As has been stated many times already, it comes down to personal preference and the importance of training under your preferred option can't be understated.
    Our own limatunes has a video about this, watch and see if you might not reconsider your stance. And I think the attacker is prob JD her hubby....

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  14. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Our own limatunes has a video about this, watch and see if you might not reconsider your stance. And I think the attacker is prob JD her hubby....
    I've watched that video numerous times before. In both scenarios, reaching to draw her gun got her stabbed. I'd go straight hand-to-hand against the guy with both arms in front of me ready to deflect the knife. It might not end well for me but I think I'd have a better chance at grabbing the attackers arm. Also, I wouldn't let some random stranger get that close to me. As I said, I'm always aware I don't have a round in the chamber and do my best to ensure I'm never cornered by a stranger as the video demonstrates.

    I appreciate the example though. I'm open minded and have not ruled out C1 carry by any means but C3 still feels right.

  15. #89
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    Well as I said your choice, your life it does not effect me either way.

    Both ND's occured in controlled enviroments, so you seem to think you can draw, chamber a round, engage a target and hit what you are aiming at under stress, while being attakced before someone gets to you or shoots you more power to you.

    There is no doubt that C3 is a "safer" way to carry a firearm, it is definitely safer for the bad guy, but so is not loading a magazine until you need it, not turning on the stovetop to cook as to risk a grease fire, not putting gas in your car to avoid accidents and many others.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  16. #90
    Ex Member Array NotMallNinja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3wggl View Post
    Also, I wouldn't let some random stranger get that close to me. As I said, I'm always aware I don't have a round in the chamber and do my best to ensure I'm never cornered by a stranger as the video demonstrates.
    You seem to contradict yourself from one sentence to the next. If you wouldn't let some random stranger get that close to you [as in Limatunes' video] then you would not need to do your best.

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