This is a discussion on Yeager video on carrying with an empty chamber within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 3wggl Again, I don't follow. I'm trying to put myself in the place of that woman. In that scenario, about her only ...
Have you thought about multiple attackers much? You're looking at an average number of - 1.87 rounds until incapacitation per attacker, you're good for two provided you hit 'em where it counts.
Downloading a J-Frame in of itself isn't a very good idea IMHO, the risk of an ND from a dropped J-frame is on the bottom side of "remote"
I've always looked @ C3 carry as the opposite of planning for the worst and hoping for the best.
Responding to a lethal force encounter with a handicap....why put the odds in favor of an attacker?
I can understand why some, especially those that may be new to firearms can be skittish about having a properly loaded gun, but it's one of those things that proper training and increased knowledge should fix. I've had a couple of students came to class as C3 carriers but after giving them some time to practice C3 vs C1 with various drills and scenarios, all have decided that C1 was "better" for them.
It's amazing what a little bit of live range time and some think tank group discussion can do.
Every one has had faster with more accurate fire when carrying C1.
Every one flubbed getting a round in the chamber when more pressure was applied.
Though group discussion we were able to point out many cases where it would be quite possible for an aggressor within Tueler drill range to interfere with racking one in the chamber, say what you want about the video, mentioned above, but bad guy doesn't have to be "that close" to foil making a pistol ready. For a revolver with empty chamber this may not be as much of an issue, but it is still possible for one to bind the cylinder with hand pressure but it is easier to obstruct an auto from functioning when trying to load one in.
In close quarters, it's really is a no brainer, even if you're counting on H2H skills, there is always the risk that you attacker is as equally ore more skilled than you in such skills and having a gun at the ready is of huge benefit. Again, with the revolver hammer down on empty is not as bad expect for the handicapped capacity.
I can think of many scenarios where C3 is a hindrance, I can't really think of any where C1 is.
As has been noted, most instances of NDs come from a couple things:
1: Lack of or improper holster
2: People handling guns when the shouldn't be
3: During required administrative handling.
All of those are pretty easy to remedy, get a proper holster designed for your gun, don't mess with your gun until it's time to gear down, if you must remove your firearm make sure you can remove the gun and holster as one unit.
I responded in the comments section of the "Thinking Gunfighter" article when it was originally posted and my comments there are as valid now as they were then.
A pretty darn good article, but a couple things should still be addressed.
1: Browning's design did have a safety before the thumb safety was added in the form of the grip safety. Not trying to knit pick, just adding an observation to an otherwise technically correct posting.
2: The issue of carrying Condition 3 while trouble is not expected vs condition 1 when trouble is expected really should not apply to civilian carry. This is mainly a Military procedure as peacetime carry etc is done condition 3, but when one knows they are in harms way they are to charge the weapon.
In civilian carry we don't have the luxury of knowing when trouble is around the corner and our firearms in most cases should be carried ready to fire. I will concede to your point on guns without firing pin safeties, especially guns of "lesser repute"
3: Those without training are even more likely to short cycle the slide, if they aren't trained enough to be comfortable with a cartridge chambered, what are the odds they will fully cycle the slide in a lethal encounter?
4: Administrative handling: I agree in part with you, my wife just came across a story where a guard shot himself in his car after a shift and he hit his femoral and bled out, phone in lap, 911 dialed but passed out before he could hit send.
This is a big reason I am fond of IWB and OWB holsters with snap loops as their method of attachment, rather than remove the gun itself I can remove the holstered gun keeping the trigger guard covered. A paddle holster and others offer this same benefit and if I were to be in the habit of arming/disarming/rearming multiple times a day, I would do so using a holster more suitable for such a task. There is also a video of an officer retrieving his sidearm from a gun locker in a jail and he manages to shoot himself and a fellow officer. The gun is dropped right in front of a line of inmates while both the "victims" run off. C3 surely would have prevented this.
In the case of officers arming and disarming, what would the officer risk if he is trained mostly with condition 1 being the norm (most dept policies I am aware of mandate condition 1 carry) and he "forgot" to load the chamber in a time of need based on C3 not being the norm?
I agree that one should carry in a manner that suits their needs, but I would hope and pray that C3 carry was only a temporary means of carry until they became comfortable with carrying a firearm C1.
Rule #1 is have a gun, and I'd rather someone carry C3 than be unarmed.
Thanks, a S&W 642 is one of my preferred methods of carry (hammer on an empty cylinder)
You mean to tell me you are so paranoid that you carry a 5 shot revolver with only 4 rounds because you are worried about an ND? You have got to be kidding, please tell me you are. I do not know if it is physically possible to make a 642 shrouded hammer revolver go off unintentionally. If this is truly what you do then you would have to carry on an empty cylinder/chamber then leave the next one empty also in case something snagged the trigger and for whatever reason had enough force to make the revolver discharge.
I'm sorry but if you seriously do this I really don't think you need to be carrying a firearm at all until you get some more training, experience or something more in your life.
"A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013
Look, this issue is complicated. You can't just look at the surface. It reminds me of something I recently read about deaths of US military. Wanna know what the top cause of death is for US soldiers? It isn't bullets fired by the enemy, it isn't IED's, it isn't bombs, or anything like that. It's suicide.
I'm trying to increase my chances of living and protecting my family, and have determined that the extra two seconds It will take me to rack the slide is less dangerous to me in the unlikely event that I will ever need to draw my weapon, then the risk of a ND from a round chambered in a carry weapon.
Anyway, I'm doing what I want, and so will you. I respect military service, but at the same time needed to address your comment.
If I were that confident that I could fend off an attacker with just my hands, or that my situational awareness was so good I couldn't be surprised or cornered, I wouldn't bother carrying a pistol at all, C1 or C3.
"The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper
"Diligentia Vis Celeritas"
You make a good point, those stories I read about concealed carry ND's DO have an impact on my decision to carry C3. Fact is, an innocent would never be hurt/killed by an ND moving forward if everyone carried C3. How many innocents or concealed carriers would be killed by bad guys due to not having one in the chamber....who knows.
"The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper
"Diligentia Vis Celeritas"
NDs wouldn't exist and innocents wouldn't be hurt by a gun that you leave at home, either. If you carry, it's to protect yourself if you ever need it. If you're worried about NDs, train harder or don't carry.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9
“The purpose of the law is not to prevent a future offense, but to punish the one actually committed” - Ayn Rand
You're more likely, IMHO, to chamber a round accidentally which could lead to a ND then you are if you carry chambered all the time. Instead of always treating the weapon as being loaded you'll more than likely become complacent thinking the weapon is always unloaded.
Regarding your second sentence, I always treat my weapons as if they are loaded. I am, however, ever aware of the condition of my gun and prepared to rack a round if necessary for SD.