Yeager video on carrying with an empty chamber - Page 8

Yeager video on carrying with an empty chamber

This is a discussion on Yeager video on carrying with an empty chamber within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 3wggl Again, I don't follow. I'm trying to put myself in the place of that woman. In that scenario, about her only ...

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  1. #106
    Ex Member Array NotMallNinja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3wggl View Post
    Again, I don't follow. I'm trying to put myself in the place of that woman. In that scenario, about her only option is to draw her weapon. For me, hand-to-hand might be best as I'd be bigger, stronger, and faster than that BG. Me going for my weapon in that scenario would be a handicap.
    You're missing the point. The scenario by Limatunes was an example to help illuminate the time difference between carrying loaded and having to rack the slide. With one you are clearly ready to engage an attacker more quickly. That is indisputable. It doesn't matter if it is a man, woman, or Sasquatch (oops, sorry, Sasquatch got run over in a previous thread). The point is not to nit pick the particular scenario which was meant to simply illuminate the difference between the two modes that have been discussed in this thread. Try doing a Tueller Drill.
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  2. #107
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3wggl View Post
    Trust me, I'm listening to you guys and learning. I have an open mind and have seen a few accounts/surveillance videos that suggest C1 may outweigh any minimal risks of an ND. C3 still feels right to me, however. Thanks, a S&W 642 is one of my preferred methods of carry (hammer on an empty cylinder) but I feel just about as comfortable with a semi-auto in C3.
    4 Shots?

    Have you thought about multiple attackers much? You're looking at an average number of - 1.87 rounds until incapacitation per attacker, you're good for two provided you hit 'em where it counts.

    Downloading a J-Frame in of itself isn't a very good idea IMHO, the risk of an ND from a dropped J-frame is on the bottom side of "remote"

    I've always looked @ C3 carry as the opposite of planning for the worst and hoping for the best.

    Responding to a lethal force encounter with a handicap....why put the odds in favor of an attacker?

    I can understand why some, especially those that may be new to firearms can be skittish about having a properly loaded gun, but it's one of those things that proper training and increased knowledge should fix. I've had a couple of students came to class as C3 carriers but after giving them some time to practice C3 vs C1 with various drills and scenarios, all have decided that C1 was "better" for them.

    It's amazing what a little bit of live range time and some think tank group discussion can do.

    Every one has had faster with more accurate fire when carrying C1.

    Every one flubbed getting a round in the chamber when more pressure was applied.

    Though group discussion we were able to point out many cases where it would be quite possible for an aggressor within Tueler drill range to interfere with racking one in the chamber, say what you want about the video, mentioned above, but bad guy doesn't have to be "that close" to foil making a pistol ready. For a revolver with empty chamber this may not be as much of an issue, but it is still possible for one to bind the cylinder with hand pressure but it is easier to obstruct an auto from functioning when trying to load one in.

    In close quarters, it's really is a no brainer, even if you're counting on H2H skills, there is always the risk that you attacker is as equally ore more skilled than you in such skills and having a gun at the ready is of huge benefit. Again, with the revolver hammer down on empty is not as bad expect for the handicapped capacity.

    I can think of many scenarios where C3 is a hindrance, I can't really think of any where C1 is.


    As has been noted, most instances of NDs come from a couple things:

    1: Lack of or improper holster
    2: People handling guns when the shouldn't be
    3: During required administrative handling.

    All of those are pretty easy to remedy, get a proper holster designed for your gun, don't mess with your gun until it's time to gear down, if you must remove your firearm make sure you can remove the gun and holster as one unit.

    I responded in the comments section of the "Thinking Gunfighter" article when it was originally posted and my comments there are as valid now as they were then.

    A pretty darn good article, but a couple things should still be addressed.

    1: Browning's design did have a safety before the thumb safety was added in the form of the grip safety. Not trying to knit pick, just adding an observation to an otherwise technically correct posting.

    2: The issue of carrying Condition 3 while trouble is not expected vs condition 1 when trouble is expected really should not apply to civilian carry. This is mainly a Military procedure as peacetime carry etc is done condition 3, but when one knows they are in harms way they are to charge the weapon.

    In civilian carry we don't have the luxury of knowing when trouble is around the corner and our firearms in most cases should be carried ready to fire. I will concede to your point on guns without firing pin safeties, especially guns of "lesser repute"

    3: Those without training are even more likely to short cycle the slide, if they aren't trained enough to be comfortable with a cartridge chambered, what are the odds they will fully cycle the slide in a lethal encounter?

    4: Administrative handling: I agree in part with you, my wife just came across a story where a guard shot himself in his car after a shift and he hit his femoral and bled out, phone in lap, 911 dialed but passed out before he could hit send.

    This is a big reason I am fond of IWB and OWB holsters with snap loops as their method of attachment, rather than remove the gun itself I can remove the holstered gun keeping the trigger guard covered. A paddle holster and others offer this same benefit and if I were to be in the habit of arming/disarming/rearming multiple times a day, I would do so using a holster more suitable for such a task. There is also a video of an officer retrieving his sidearm from a gun locker in a jail and he manages to shoot himself and a fellow officer. The gun is dropped right in front of a line of inmates while both the "victims" run off. C3 surely would have prevented this.

    In the case of officers arming and disarming, what would the officer risk if he is trained mostly with condition 1 being the norm (most dept policies I am aware of mandate condition 1 carry) and he "forgot" to load the chamber in a time of need based on C3 not being the norm?

    I agree that one should carry in a manner that suits their needs, but I would hope and pray that C3 carry was only a temporary means of carry until they became comfortable with carrying a firearm C1.

    Rule #1 is have a gun, and I'd rather someone carry C3 than be unarmed.
    Last edited by JD; August 30th, 2012 at 01:40 PM. Reason: added link

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Your saying that you would be faster than an un-expected attack? This is why I recommended you seek training. I really do not believe you understand how fast and how bad it can be. Hell, I know some high speed low drag kind of guys and even they are weary of these types of attacks....
    I will take your advice and am looking for courses/training right now. I've been attacked on one occasion by someone without a weapon. All I remember is turning and seeing the rage in his eye as he was rushing me....the scuffle lasted about 3 seconds and he ran away bleeding. I have a sense for how quickly things can happen but you're right I have no experience in armed encounters of any sort...I'll let you know if my opinion of C1 vs C3 changes following some solid training.

  4. #109
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    Thanks, a S&W 642 is one of my preferred methods of carry (hammer on an empty cylinder)

    You mean to tell me you are so paranoid that you carry a 5 shot revolver with only 4 rounds because you are worried about an ND? You have got to be kidding, please tell me you are. I do not know if it is physically possible to make a 642 shrouded hammer revolver go off unintentionally. If this is truly what you do then you would have to carry on an empty cylinder/chamber then leave the next one empty also in case something snagged the trigger and for whatever reason had enough force to make the revolver discharge.

    I'm sorry but if you seriously do this I really don't think you need to be carrying a firearm at all until you get some more training, experience or something more in your life.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  5. #110
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3wggl View Post
    I will take your advice and am looking for courses/training right now. I've been attacked on one occasion by someone without a weapon. All I remember is turning and seeing the rage in his eye as he was rushing me....the scuffle lasted about 3 seconds and he ran away bleeding. I have a sense for how quickly things can happen but you're right I have no experience in armed encounters of any sort...I'll let you know if my opinion of C1 vs C3 changes following some solid training.
    Where about in "North America" are you? If you're more comfortable discussing in private, send me a Pm and I can steer you in the right direction.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by First Sgt View Post
    Carrying "unchambered", IN MY OPINION, is simply a matter of the carrier having a lack of understanding of their weapon, having a lack of training, having a lack of competence, all of which result in having a lack of confidence in their own abilities to be safe. The position of saying most ND's occur with individuals who carry their weapon chambered, is a mute point. I'm not interested in "most individuals"...I'm concerned with only one individual..MYSELF!!! Could a ND happen, sure... Is it likely to happen, most definitely NOT! I'll take the chance of making a mistake vs the loss of time or worse, when needing my weapon and having to stop/remember to rack the slide.

    For those that are proponents of carrying "without one in the chamber", how many have a military background? Just curious. I know there are many of us here in the forums that have military backgrounds, and I'd almost bet to a man, that if any of them ever found out that one of their unit members was carrying an unchambered weapon in a kill or be killed environment, they would most probably have a "hissy fit" and that's putting it mildly. Oh, I can hear the pea brains turning and saying, "but this is not a kill or be killed environment"...Well I submit to you that if today's world isn't a kill or be killed environment when it comes the time that you need your weapon in a self defense moment, then just exactly what is it? It certainly isn't a game of Cowboys and Indians, that's for sure. So if it's not a kill or be killed environment, why are you carrying?

    Those that carry unchambered say, "oh, I can rack and be ready to rock and roll and only lose milleseconds"...Ever hear the old saying "Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenandes"? I submit to you, that if I can attain any semblance of an advantage by being ready to rock and roll upon presentation, then I shall do so. Those that say to themselves, awww, it's not "that much" of an advantage, are simply whitewashing the moment. Stress factors will be present in a life or death situation, and IF I can give myself one less thing to think about (racking a slide or even releasing a safety), then that allows me just that much more time to concentrate on the situation at hand....which is PROTECTING MYSELF AND MY LOVED ONES BY SURVIVING THE FIGHT...

    As for the Yeager haters...Everyone is entitled to their opinion...If you are forming your opinion based on "others opinions", then I challenge you to train with Yeager and form your own rather than letting others influence the opinion which you espouse, which in this case is second hand or worse. Yeager offers a money back guarantee to anyone, ANYONE, who trains with him and is not satisfied with the classes. All you have to do is stand up in front of your training mates and tell exactly why you aren't satisfied. Now, if you have the kahunas, and you have that guarantee, what's stopping you from training with Yeager? Ohhhhhh, you say he's unsafe because he allows another instructor to be down range while the student(s) is performing a live fire drill. I'll speak from a bit of PERSONAL EXPERIENCE here. I've trained with Yeager and Jay Gibson (the photographer downrange). I would challenge anyone on here to train with either one, and not come away with respect for their knowledge and their methods and their attention to safety. Yes...Jay was downrange (about 3 feet to the side of MY target), while I and others were performing live fire drills. Did it concern me...sure...did I refuse to do the drills...NO...because I had enough confidence in my competency and my weapon handling to execute my drill objective in a safe manner. Yeager and all of his instructors, encourage their students to have open minds when they come to Tactical Response for training. They encourage their students to also train with other well known instructors. Yeager and his instructors train with other instructors yearly, some of the best in the business, and also have other instructors that come to Tactical Response to train with Yeager and his crew. Seems to me, IF his methods were soooo "off the cuff", that "REPUTABLE" instructors would shy away from training with him...Just sayin....

    Hey...those that carry unchambered, do as you wish. All I know is I certainly wouldn't want you backing me in any situation which required instantaneous actions, for fear YOU would be a day late and a millesecond short in providing the necessary additional lead that might be required. JMO
    I have a good buddy that is a Sargeant in the Army, has done two tours in Iraq, has a purple heart, and has over 30 confirmed kills, and you know what? I respect him, and he's my boy, but he is one of the most unsafe people with a gun I've ever witnessed. Even your basic stuff he misses, like when he got a new handgun and brought it over to show me, and he hands it to me with a full mag loaded, and the slide closed! He also waives the gun around here and there, paying no attention to where the muzzle is facing. He puts my wife so on edge with his unsafe gun handling, that she refuses to be anywhere near when he has a gun out.

    Look, this issue is complicated. You can't just look at the surface. It reminds me of something I recently read about deaths of US military. Wanna know what the top cause of death is for US soldiers? It isn't bullets fired by the enemy, it isn't IED's, it isn't bombs, or anything like that. It's suicide.

    I'm trying to increase my chances of living and protecting my family, and have determined that the extra two seconds It will take me to rack the slide is less dangerous to me in the unlikely event that I will ever need to draw my weapon, then the risk of a ND from a round chambered in a carry weapon.

    Anyway, I'm doing what I want, and so will you. I respect military service, but at the same time needed to address your comment.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    You mean to tell me you are so paranoid that you carry a 5 shot revolver with only 4 rounds because you are worried about an ND? You have got to be kidding, please tell me you are. I do not know if it is physically possible to make a 642 shrouded hammer revolver go off unintentionally. If this is truly what you do then you would have to carry on an empty cylinder/chamber then leave the next one empty also in case something snagged the trigger and for whatever reason had enough force to make the revolver discharge.

    I'm sorry but if you seriously do this I really don't think you need to be carrying a firearm at all until you get some more training, experience or something more in your life.
    No need for the condescending tone. We are free to carry as we choose and my method still provides adequate defense for many situations. As I've stated, I'm comfortable with the handicaps of my method and even more comfortable with the zero chance of ND. I prefer to carry in a consistent method so the empty chamber concept on a semi-auto carries over to the 642. As stated, I will pursue additional training based on the valuable advice from you, JD and Harry and see if my preference changes. I stand by the benefits of a C3 carry and fear the next story I read about an innocent being killed due to the negligence of someone carrying with one in the chamber.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3wggl View Post
    I stand by the benefits of a C3 carry and fear the next story I read about an innocent being killed due to the negligence of someone carrying with one in the chamber.
    I would not fear about the next story since those things you are not in control of (or in this case by your method the next story we might be reading is how you, heavens forbid, were unable to react in time to the threat). Seems you have ample self-confidence in your hand to hand combat abilities but apparently no self-confidence to carry a chambered round.

  9. #114
    OD*
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    If I were that confident that I could fend off an attacker with just my hands, or that my situational awareness was so good I couldn't be surprised or cornered, I wouldn't bother carrying a pistol at all, C1 or C3.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, don’t give them a tomorrow."

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotMallNinja View Post
    I would not fear about the next story since those things you are not in control of (or in this case by your method the next story we might be reading is how you, heavens forbid, were unable to react in time to the threat). Seems you have ample self-confidence in your hand to hand combat abilities but apparently no self-confidence to carry a chambered round.
    I wouldn't say I'm over confident in h-2-h skills it's just I think there are situations where you are much better off h-2-h than trying to draw a weapon. Based on comments I've seen on the various firearms forums, I get the impression many see their firearm as their only means of defense and may overlook a better option. Who knows, maybe those comments come from folks with ample training and are prepared to make the best decision....maybe not.

    You make a good point, those stories I read about concealed carry ND's DO have an impact on my decision to carry C3. Fact is, an innocent would never be hurt/killed by an ND moving forward if everyone carried C3. How many innocents or concealed carriers would be killed by bad guys due to not having one in the chamber....who knows.

  11. #116
    OD*
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    [1: Browning's design did have a safety before the thumb safety was added in the form of the grip safety. Not trying to knit pick, just adding an observation to an otherwise technically correct posting.
    And JD, you were spot on with this comment, but his friend knew better, apparently his friend has never seen a Colt Model 1907 U.S. Military, Colt Model 1909 U.S. Military, nor the M1910.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, don’t give them a tomorrow."

  12. #117
    Senior Member Array GeorgiaDawg's Avatar
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    NDs wouldn't exist and innocents wouldn't be hurt by a gun that you leave at home, either. If you carry, it's to protect yourself if you ever need it. If you're worried about NDs, train harder or don't carry.
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

    “The purpose of the law is not to prevent a future offense, but to punish the one actually committed” - Ayn Rand

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3wggl View Post
    Fact is, an innocent would never be hurt/killed by an ND moving forward if everyone carried C3. How many innocents or concealed carriers would be killed by bad guys due to not having one in the chamber....who knows.
    You might want to consider separating the rounds from the weapon entirely. This way you would not have to worry about accidentally chambering a round when taking down the weapon, etc.

    You're more likely, IMHO, to chamber a round accidentally which could lead to a ND then you are if you carry chambered all the time. Instead of always treating the weapon as being loaded you'll more than likely become complacent thinking the weapon is always unloaded.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotMallNinja View Post
    You might want to consider separating the rounds from the weapon entirely. This way you would not have to worry about accidentally chambering a round when taking down the weapon, etc.

    You're more likely, IMHO, to chamber a round accidentally which could lead to a ND then you are if you carry chambered all the time. Instead of always treating the weapon as being loaded you'll more than likely become complacent thinking the weapon is always unloaded.
    Regarding your comments in bold, that seems excessive. That said, I don't keep loaded mags or live rounds near me when cleaning my weapon.

    Regarding your second sentence, I always treat my weapons as if they are loaded. I am, however, ever aware of the condition of my gun and prepared to rack a round if necessary for SD.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3wggl View Post
    I always treat my weapons as if they are loaded. I am, however, ever aware of the condition of my gun and prepared to rack a round if necessary for SD.
    Then you should have no problem carrying with a chambered round.
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