Went to my first IDPA match - time well spent

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September 2nd, 2012, 09:55 PM
rwponline

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill MO

I agree for tweaking your shooting skills IDPA will help but for fighting skills in a gunfight I have my doubts. Things you learn and do there will get you shot in a real world gunfight.

Just my thoughts on IDPA, I do them for fun not for learning of the how to's of a gunfight.

I'm not aware of anyone that has studied more gunfights or testified as an expert witness at more trials than Massad Ayoob, and here's what he has to say on the subject:

“A shooting match is not a gunfight, but a gunfight most definitely is a shooting match.” It follows the person most acclimated to shooting fast and straight under pressure is going to have an advantage, whether the stakes on the table are a trophy or survival.

The Rationale Of Combat Handgun Competition | Guns Magazine
September 2nd, 2012, 10:18 PM
DrahtDog

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40Bob

Call me a Little confused? I agree that everything is not realistic, but get you shot? Please explain, maybe I have been missing something.

Im with you, Ill always want the guy who is good at shooting on the move, and can put good zero down hits on a target very quickly under stress on my side in a gunfight over a guy who stands on a firing line pounding the bullseye with his carefully set stance and controlled breathing etc.
September 2nd, 2012, 10:22 PM
Bill MO

Guys I am not here to change anyone opinion on their ideas of the hows and whys of winning a gunfight or what IDPA is or is not. If you are looking for some answers then take what I say for what its worth. Only you know what's best for you. But if you thinking learning your gunfighting skills from shooting IDPA is the way to go then go for it. And good luck!

I DON'T think they are the same and I will train and practice accordingly. I training for saving my life in real world life and I also shoot IDPA but it is a game and trigger time. Which I do think helps with the ability to shoot better, faster and straighter. But is not training of skills needed to win a gunfight. In a gunfight one needs to think about how to get the BG shot without get shot yourself. In IDPA it's all about what the timer says when you are done. But in real life situations the timer is not even in the mix, its being able to go home after its all over.

rwponline, a shooting match to me is you and the BG/GUYS standing in the middle of the street at high noon in a face off. Most times that ends with both sides taking hits and most likely dead. In a true gunfight if you fight fair you lose, so I will cheat any chance I get. When you're gaming cheating is frowned upon.
September 2nd, 2012, 10:30 PM
40Bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill MO

To name a couple,

(1) Shooting more than one target without moving off the X or going to cover. If there is more than one BG and you stand still you most likely will die. My thoughts is if there is only one BG with his gun already drawn and you stand still you will die. MOVEMENT is your friend.

(2) The gaming way of using cover is not good for real life fighting. You are showing way to much body, but when you are thinking speed and time in a game making the hit fast is all that matters.

My suggestion is when you think you are good and can win the fight most times put it to the test in a FOF scenario. Yes plastic BBs hurt but nothing like real lead bullets. Shoot those same scenarios that you shoot in IDPA against live BG who actually shoot back, with airsoft.

I guess it depends on how you run. I don't use IDPA for training I use it for practice. I do get a procedural for doing like I do, sometimes, but that is life. IDPA requires movement, and cover and yes some people duck walk, but that is them. I agree that you gotta get of the X and that standing and delivering will get ya hurt. You also must engage in tactical order.
September 2nd, 2012, 10:35 PM
Bill MO

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrahtDog

Im with you, Ill always want the guy who is good at shooting on the move, and can put good zero down hits on a target very quickly under stress on my side in a gunfight over a guy who stands on a firing line pounding the bullseye with his carefully set stance and controlled breathing etc.

In the video posted tell me where to look for shooting on the move. I saw shooting and then moving but not shooting on the move. There is a difference! I have not shot that much IDPA but what moving I have seen is backing-up straight away from the target. I do not call that moving to keep from getting shot yourself. At least make the BG move the gun to make the hits. Its hard to outrun a bullet and make it miss just with more distance at least change the angle of movement.
September 2nd, 2012, 10:37 PM
40Bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill MO

Guys I am not here to change anyone opinion on their ideas of the hows and whys of winning a gunfight or what IDPA is or is not. If you are looking for some answers then take what I say for what its worth. Only you know what's best for you. But if you thinking learning your gunfighting skills from shooting IDPA is the way to go then go for it. And good luck!

I DON'T think they are the same and I will train and practice accordingly. I training for saving my life in real world life and I also shoot IDPA but it is a game and trigger time. Which I do think helps with the ability to shoot better, faster and straighter. But is not training of skills needed to win a gunfight. In a gunfight one needs to think about how to get the BG shot without get shot yourself. In IDPA it's all about what the timer says when you are done. But in real life situations the timer is not even in the mix, its being able to go home after its all over.

rwponline, a shooting match to me is you and the BG/GUYS standing in the middle of the street at high noon in a face off. Most times that ends with both sides taking hits and most likely dead. In a true gunfight if you fight fair you lose, so I will cheat any chance I get. When you're gaming cheating is frowned upon.

I totally agree.
September 2nd, 2012, 10:54 PM
DrahtDog

Its not the same as a gunfight for sure. I just think some aspects of idpa is going to help. Drawing from concealment with your actual carry gun aquiring sight picture and putting rounds on target are a good thing and engaging multiple targets etc. Is alot better than standing on a range at a line shooting bullseyes on a single target. I think the majority of average people just go to the range and practice like this. So I think IDPA is an improvement over that.
September 2nd, 2012, 11:19 PM
ghost tracker

There is no gun-game that strictly simulates a gunfight...except a gunfight. And no two gunfights have ever been identical. But the posts in this thread prompt the question - In an actual gunfight would you rather have, at their best, Jim Cirillo or Rob Leatham as your partner?
September 3rd, 2012, 12:24 AM
rwponline

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill MO

rwponline, a shooting match to me is you and the BG/GUYS standing in the middle of the street at high noon in a face off. Most times that ends with both sides taking hits and most likely dead. In a true gunfight if you fight fair you lose, so I will cheat any chance I get. When you're gaming cheating is frowned upon.

I think the point was that 'shooting matches' like IDPA build/reinforce the basic gun handling skills that need to be second nature during a real world defensive use of a handgun (gunfight). Having said that, I agree with your sentiment about IDPA not replicating a real world engagement.

If you are running IDPA for practice, and airsoft FOF for tactics you have clearly thought it through, and are far more prepared than most. But take it easy on those that are a few steps behind you on their own journeys. For most people a few IDPA matches a year would be a fun way to get some much needed trigger time, and to build foundational skills.
September 3rd, 2012, 08:14 AM
Bill MO

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwponline

If you are running IDPA for practice, and airsoft FOF for tactics you have clearly thought it through, and are far more prepared than most. But take it easy on those that are a few steps behind you on their own journeys. For most people a few IDPA matches a year would be a fun way to get some much needed trigger time, and to build foundational skills.

Yes I guess I am pushing something and that something is, NOT to think just because you can shoot a paper target you are ready for any and all situations you can come up against in real life. That's almost as bad as thinking having a gun will stop all situations without ever firing a round and there is those who think that ever thing. My sore subject point in posts are when people say or think they are where they need to be and say I'm good enough, I don't need no stinking training I can shoot. And think that will win the situation. If you know you need more training and are still looking and trying to get better then my gripe is not with you. Time will take care to that.

I see it you are never good enough so you keep training and practicing all your life to get better. There is this saying that no one has ever said they had to much ammo after the fight. I think you can add to that no one will say they had to much training after a fight, but I think there are those who think I needed more TRAINING.
September 3rd, 2012, 10:24 AM
Bubbiesdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill MO

In the video posted tell me where to look for shooting on the move. I saw shooting and then moving but not shooting on the move. There is a difference! I have not shot that much IDPA but what moving I have seen is backing-up straight away from the target. I do not call that moving to keep from getting shot yourself. At least make the BG move the gun to make the hits. Its hard to outrun a bullet and make it miss just with more distance at least change the angle of movement.

Be Careful stage, walking backwards is movement.

Dash to Safety, left to right movement.
Shopping at the mall stage, left to right movement.
The Poker game stage required shooting while seated. It's hard to walk while sitting down. There are stages where you sit up and walk to cover, while shooting.
Hurt stage, no movement, but hardcover is used, as are all stages where no movement is required.

it's hard to walk through a wall.
September 3rd, 2012, 10:35 AM
Bubbiesdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill MO

To name a couple,

(1) Shooting more than one target without moving off the X or going to cover. If there is more than one BG and you stand still you most likely will die. My thoughts is if there is only one BG with his gun already drawn and you stand still you will die. MOVEMENT is your friend.

(2) The gaming way of using cover is not good for real life fighting. You are showing way to much body, but when you are thinking speed and time in a game making the hit fast is all that matters.

My suggestion is when you think you are good and can win the fight most times put it to the test in a FOF scenario. Yes plastic BBs hurt but nothing like real lead bullets. Shoot those same scenarios that you shoot in IDPA against live BG who actually shoot back, with airsoft.

Not a part of IDPA, except for the occasional El Prez.

The gaming way of using cover is penalized in IDPA.

Airsoft is more of a game than IDPA.
September 3rd, 2012, 01:39 PM
40Bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubbiesdad

Airsoft is more of a game than IDPA.

I can be unless strictly regimented. That is "FOF TRAINING" is good.
September 3rd, 2012, 01:48 PM
Bill MO

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill MO
To name a couple,

(1) Shooting more than one target without moving off the X or going to cover. If there is more than one BG and you stand still you most likely will die. My thoughts is if there is only one BG with his gun already drawn and you stand still you will die. MOVEMENT is your friend.

(2) The gaming way of using cover is not good for real life fighting. You are showing way to much body, but when you are thinking speed and time in a game making the hit fast is all that matters.

My suggestion is when you think you are good and can win the fight most times put it to the test in a FOF scenario. Yes plastic BBs hurt but nothing like real lead bullets. Shoot those same scenarios that you shoot in IDPA against live BG who actually shoot back, with airsoft.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubbiesdad

Not a part of IDPA, except for the occasional El Prez.

The gaming way of using cover is penalized in IDPA.

Airsoft is more of a game than IDPA.

Not a part of IDPA, except for the occasional El Prez. Not part of IDPA because of range safety. Therefore can not be done and you do not learn how to do otherwise in a real gunfight unless you learn and get it somewhere else.

The gaming way of using cover is penalized in IDPA. I see what is allowed without penalty as being dangerous to your health in a real gunfight. As long as not over 1/2 of your body exposed you are fine, way to much in real life. No thought to or penalty to cover hugging or thought to incoming lead splatter.

Airsoft is more of a game than IDPA.[/QUOTE] Yes if you go to paint ball and airsoft ranges and play games then it is a game. What I'm talking about is facing structured scenarios like those in IDPA only you are getting shot back at. If you fail in get all targets neutralized before they shoot you, you suffer the pain of taking hits. And yes airsoft BB's can and do hurt........Also from what I have seen and done in FOF training scenarios, in the IDPA SCENARIOS (as done) most time you will and would take hits. (Therefore the way I see it you will and would take hits if in a real situation scenario in real life.) NOT GOOD!

All my post have be posted as food for thought nothing more, because I don't have to live or die with what ever you decide to do or not do. Only mine!!! and I can and will do just that.
September 3rd, 2012, 01:57 PM
Bubbiesdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill MO

Not a part of IDPA, except for the occasional El Prez. Not part of IDPA because of range safety. Therefore can not be done and you do not learn how to do otherwise in a real gunfight unless you learn and get it somewhere else.

The gaming way of using cover is penalized in IDPA. I see what is allowed without penalty as being dangerous to your health in a real gunfight. As long as not over 1/2 of your body exposed you are fine, way to much in real life. No thought to or penalty to cover hugging or thought to incoming lead splatter.

Airsoft is more of a game than IDPA.

Yes if you go to paint ball and airsoft ranges and play games then it is a game. What I'm talking about is facing structured scenarios like those in IDPA only you are getting shot back at. If you fail in get all targets neutralized before they shoot you, you suffer the pain of taking hits. And yes airsoft BB's can and do hurt........Also from what I have seen and done in FOF training scenarios, in the IDPA SCENARIOS (as done) most time you will and would take hits. (Therefore the way I see it you will and would take hits if in a real situation scenario in real life.) NOT GOOD!

All my post have be posted as food for thought nothing more, because I don't have to live or die with what ever you decide to do or not do. Only mine!!! and I can and will do just that.[/QUOTE]

Nearly all IDPA stages require movement or cover, or both.

What you see cover wise is not the IDPA I shoot. But then you have already said you don't shoot much IDPA.

So, how do they duplicate recoil of a 9mm, .40, or a .45 in airsoft to affect the follow up shots?

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