Would you shoot.... - Page 4

Would you shoot....

This is a discussion on Would you shoot.... within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ghost tracker Thanks! How old is he? He is 8, when I asked if he wanted to help with this little project ...

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    Thanks! How old is he?
    He is 8, when I asked if he wanted to help with this little project his eyes lit up. Both kids love coming to my classes, they have a healthy understanding of weapons and how to use them....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......


  2. #47
    Member Array rabbit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Time to find out what kind of gun are little guy has...Its a Crossman BB gun. So you would have shot a child with a BB gun drawn down on you....

    This is a video of the same BB gun we used...

    Unfortunately I would've shot a kid with a BB gun. When moments like this happen, the only wrong decision is to make no decision at all. My decision was to defend myself from what appeared to be a likely scenario of a real gun with intent to pull the trigger aimed towards me.

    I would've been put under very bad media coverage because I shot a child with a toy gun.

    So I troubling thought (from a father to be(this coming January)), who's fault is it?
    *Myself for not analyzing the situation more clearly?
    *Parent to the child for not teaching proper handling and what to do and not to do with a firearm?
    **Also noting what could happen and the possible message it sends when you hold something like this (not to mention the amount of responsibility that one should have with one)
    *The child for knowing that actions can have consequences?
    *The maker of the firearm to make a gun mimic a real hand gun with no obvious / apparent markings to distinguish it from a real gun?

    And on the flip side. Even if you were not actually at fault for such a action, others may perceive, label and continue to treat you as such.

    As much as I want to protect myself and my family. I also don't want to do anything that would limit myself from protecting my family in the future and strip the freedoms I come to love and enjoy.

    Good exercise.
    If you wish for peace, prepare for war.

  3. #48
    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    This little "test" (set up) is bogus. The government considers a "child" anyone aged up to and including early 20s.

    I have spent my adult career putting my life and well being on the line to try to save the life of others. Sometimes the "others" are people I wouldn't cross the street to talk to....you know....human scum. I gave up my career and long term physical health directly in doing that.

    My life is as important to me as anyone....regardless of age, sex, color, creed, religion or what NFL team they cheer for.

    I have in my professional past seen "children" who have killed others...with intent...one even his own mother (stabbed over 26 times because she asked him to take out the trash and "pissed" him off).

    There is only one who has the right to take my life and that is GOD. If He gives me the resources to protect myself and my family, who am I to argue with Him.

    I won't like it, but if it has to be done....it will be. I get sick of people who make up these little "tests" to try to climb to the moral "high ground" on the backs of people who are only trying to protect themselves and their families.

    If you wish to "distract" or "take cover" or "throw oreos" or take a chance that it is a BB gun or even squirt gun, I wish you luck with that, but don't expect me to send flowers to your funeral.

    I have even taught my 11 year old grand daughter that if you play stupid games...you win stupid prizes.
    A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
    Susan B. Anthony
    A armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one has to back it up with his life.
    Robert Heinlein

  4. #49
    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    Thanks Harry! Hey, where are all the righteously indignant defenders of killing an 8 year-old with a BB gun? Y'all had no issue with telling me your opinions before the details came out, so where are you now? Anyone second guessing their hard-line position? Come onnnnn, let's hear it.

    Where'd they go?

    Oh, there you are!
    There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    Thanks Harry! Hey, where are all the righteously indignant defenders of killing an 8 year-old with a BB gun? Y'all had no issue with telling me your opinions before the details came out, so where are you now? Anyone second guessing their hard-line position? Come onnnnn, let's hear it.

    Where'd they go?

    Oh, there you are!
    Here I am and standing by it.
    A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
    Susan B. Anthony
    A armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one has to back it up with his life.
    Robert Heinlein

  6. #51
    Senior Member Array ZX9RCAM's Avatar
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    Is it not correct, that during the course of a robbery, if somebody states they have a weapon, or use a fake
    one, it is considered "armed robbery", or something of this nature?
    Spirit51 likes this.
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    Im a big fan of the .22LR for bear defense.
    Just shoot the guy next to you in the knee and run like heck.

  7. #52
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    I came late to this and see that it has turned out to be a BB gun but in the heat of the moment and given certain lighting conditions that might not be obvious. I looked at the muzzle and in the picture it still looked pretty big for a BB gun.

    Anyway, even given all that information I'm kind of surprised by how gun-centric the question is... would you shoot?

    Is that my only option for defending myself? It's pretty darned limited and a bad choice for facing someone already pointing a gun at you ... child or not.

    Can't I grab the muzzle, sweep it to the side and beam the kid up side the head with the back of my hand? Granted, if he's at a distance that might not be possible but I don't want "shoot" or "don't shoot" to be my only options because they never are.

    I guess this goes along with the whole "every problem is a nail" when all you carry is a hammer.

    And, yes, there are some things that need to be considered. Do I know the child? If not then I have no basis upon which to decide whether or not he's serious or not. Etc. Etc.

    However, to answer the direct "would you shoot" question... if I felt that was necessary then I couldn't say I wouldn't. I'm not going to stand up and pound my chest and say, "HELL YES!" though because I would do everything I could not to have to.... just like I would in any other situation.

  8. #53
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    Responses to this type of question are often misinterpreted.

    Most of the 'hell yes' type responses are coming from members whom I believe would use extreme discretion and discernment in such a situation. However, their point is that if you think that a child negates your ability to respond with lethal force, you may very likely die in a situation like that.

    Sadly, evil comes in all shapes and packages.
    Spirit51, Glhadiator and JDE101 like this.
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  9. #54
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    This thread has generated opinions that are a lot more polarized than I had expected. To the "I'll shoot" crowd, how young would the child have to be before you'd want more details? Agreed, in the photo he has a pistol in hand with no finger on the trigger. But that's ALL we know. Are y'all saying that is all you would NEED to know before shooting him/her?
    In my first reply, I used the words that are written into most firearm laws in this country; they are :reasonable, and imminent. In SC the law begins with "presumption by a reasonable person of imminent danger of death or great bodily injury". Do I really have to explain those words to you or anyone? No one is a monster in this thread but no one should be murdered either. Is there an age on this? Beats me, but I can remember the facts of the Vietnam War and recent suicide bombers in Afghanistan--we can be talking 9, 10 years old. Do any of us want to kill a 10 year old? The answer is no BUT if he is the kind of monster that DOES exist in our society, the answer is yes--I have a duty to protect myself and I will be damned if I am going to stand there while a little monster decides to end my life. Anyone who would just stand there whispering little coochie coos to the nice looking little boy, who is about to end your life, is a fool.
    Spirit51, Glhadiator and JDE101 like this.

  10. #55
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    I came late to this and see that it has turned out to be a BB gun but in the heat of the moment and given certain lighting conditions that might not be obvious. I looked at the muzzle and in the picture it still looked pretty big for a BB gun.

    Anyway, even given all that information I'm kind of surprised by how gun-centric the question is... would you shoot?

    Is that my only option for defending myself? It's pretty darned limited and a bad choice for facing someone already pointing a gun at you ... child or not.

    Can't I grab the muzzle, sweep it to the side and beam the kid up side the head with the back of my hand? Granted, if he's at a distance that might not be possible but I don't want "shoot" or "don't shoot" to be my only options because they never are.

    I guess this goes along with the whole "every problem is a nail" when all you carry is a hammer.

    And, yes, there are some things that need to be considered. Do I know the child? If not then I have no basis upon which to decide whether or not he's serious or not. Etc. Etc.

    However, to answer the direct "would you shoot" question... if I felt that was necessary then I couldn't say I wouldn't. I'm not going to stand up and pound my chest and say, "HELL YES!" though because I would do everything I could not to have to.... just like I would in any other situation.
    That is what I said on post 22...glad someone else figured it out. Take the age out of the situation ..why on earth are you even thinking about drawing.

    Am I carrying C3 so I have that extra second to think while I am racking the slide? (sorry, had to toss that in there being the smart butt I am). No, I would not. Here is why: I am assuming that I see the child as is in the picture..that is he is that close to me. I would not have time to draw whether it was a child or not and at that distance child or not H2H would be best. Covering the approximate 5 feet or less in the scenario puts drawing out of the question.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit51 View Post
    This little "test" (set up) is bogus. The government considers a "child" anyone aged up to and including early 20s.

    I have spent my adult career putting my life and well being on the line to try to save the life of others. Sometimes the "others" are people I wouldn't cross the street to talk to....you know....human scum. I gave up my career and long term physical health directly in doing that.

    My life is as important to me as anyone....regardless of age, sex, color, creed, religion or what NFL team they cheer for.

    I have in my professional past seen "children" who have killed others...with intent...one even his own mother (stabbed over 26 times because she asked him to take out the trash and "pissed" him off).

    There is only one who has the right to take my life and that is GOD. If He gives me the resources to protect myself and my family, who am I to argue with Him.

    I won't like it, but if it has to be done....it will be. I get sick of people who make up these little "tests" to try to climb to the moral "high ground" on the backs of people who are only protecting themselves and their families.

    If you wish to "distract" or "take cover" or "throw oreos" or take a chance that it is a BB gun or even squirt gun, I wish you luck with that, but don't expect me to send flowers to your funeral.

    I have even taught my 11 year old grand daughter that if you play stupid games...you win stupid prizes.
    So; you don't like the test. You disagree with a "government classification". You're second guessing your career choice. Your life is important. You've seen tragedy. God gives you justification. You're sick of people. You've lost your sense of humor. I don't want/need your flowers. And your grand daughter (~40% older than the example) knows better. That's all well & fine. All entirely your call.

    Yet it sounds to me like you're still just as comfortable & confident taking the shot now that you know the details as you were before you knew them. I pray you (or any of us) never has to make that decision. But if you do, I don't think much of what you've said is gonna' sway...the Grand Jury. They're gonna' be asking what a "reasonable man" would do, I don't think your rationalizations are gonna' meet that standard. And I'd careful about that "moral high ground" stuff. All I said was I'd rather die than mistakenly kill that kid. I don't see much "high ground" in that. IHMO, I hear more morality being preached in the indignant tone of your lecture on why killing him is okay. We simply don't have the same morality.
    suntzu likes this.
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  12. #57
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit51 View Post
    This little "test" (set up) is bogus. The government considers a "child" anyone aged up to and including early 20s.

    I have spent my adult career putting my life and well being on the line to try to save the life of others. Sometimes the "others" are people I wouldn't cross the street to talk to....you know....human scum. I gave up my career and long term physical health directly in doing that.

    My life is as important to me as anyone....regardless of age, sex, color, creed, religion or what NFL team they cheer for.

    I have in my professional past seen "children" who have killed others...with intent...one even his own mother (stabbed over 26 times because she asked him to take out the trash and "pissed" him off).

    There is only one who has the right to take my life and that is GOD. If He gives me the resources to protect myself and my family, who am I to argue with Him.

    I won't like it, but if it has to be done....it will be. I get sick of people who make up these little "tests" to try to climb to the moral "high ground" on the backs of people who are only trying to protect themselves and their families.

    If you wish to "distract" or "take cover" or "throw oreos" or take a chance that it is a BB gun or even squirt gun, I wish you luck with that, but don't expect me to send flowers to your funeral.

    I have even taught my 11 year old grand daughter that if you play stupid games...you win stupid prizes.
    I wouldnt do that... There are a lot of variables to this scenario. I understand that, I think some of the folks here have miss that point.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  13. #58
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    There's an interesting thread running parallel to this one:

    he is just a normal 9 year old - the aunt says

    Now imagine that kid when he finds mamma's gun.
    minimalbrat likes this.
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  14. #59
    Member Array 3wggl's Avatar
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    There's no way I'd draw and gun the kid down. I'd hope he doesn't know how to use the thing and would try and dash for cover where I could attempt to reason with the child....or dash for an exit where I could then call 911. If I was as close to the kid as in the picture....I'd quickly grab him or the gun and disarm him.

  15. #60
    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    Duck N' Cover............then negotiate for ice cream.

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