Is there a good reason for FOF training?

This is a discussion on Is there a good reason for FOF training? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by TSiWRX ^ I'm sorta a neighbor. At least a fellow Ohioan. Where are you getting your training. There's almost no local resources ...

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Thread: Is there a good reason for FOF training?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    ^ I'm sorta a neighbor. At least a fellow Ohioan.

    Where are you getting your training. There's almost no local resources here in my area.

    Thanks!
    You are closer to me than the tactical training is. Here is where I go:
    http://tdiohio.com/home_page/
    I highly recommend them. I also recommend the cheap motel in West Union shown on their accomodations attachment.
    Last edited by Mike1956; September 15th, 2012 at 05:39 PM. Reason: wrong link
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick21 View Post
    There is as much difference in "gun shooting" and "gun fighting" as there is between punching a heavy bag and getting in the ring. Perceived skills change when bad things are coming back at you.

    We went out on Labor Day and did some FOF. We try to video our practice, this is one we did on "drawing against a drawn weapons". Everything except the knife was done at 3 yards. In the vid, the BG had to wait to fire until he got a visual cue. In this scenario it was me drawing my pistol in defense to seeing his pistol pointed at me. Also, to give me a small advantage we decided he would only do head shots, it didn't help. On the stationary and sidestep, he hit me at least 2 or 3 times before I could bring my pistol to a firing postition. In the real world the BG starts the fight and the GG responds. We wanted to find out just how much of a disadvantage the CCW would be in, in that situation.

    The popping sound on my POV is the BB's boncing off my mask.

    Drawing vs Drawn weapons - YouTube
    Nice job, and very on point.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    Every one want’s to be a "top gun" but it's not going to happen. If you figure it out we all want to know because I don't think there is an easy solution

    someone told me one time shooting is ease to do but a life time to master
    While that is true, not being top gun. We can all be better than we were yesterday. While we all have to make our own choices in life, we do find time and money for that which we deem the most important in life. The question then lies as to where you place training for the protection of your and families life.

    We can not foresee what in is the future so we must prepare for what we expect to be the worse in our life. We then have to live with that choice be it right or wrong.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    Every one want’s to be a "top gun" but it's not going to happen. If you figure it out we all want to know because I don't think there is an easy solution

    someone told me one time shooting is ease to do but a life time to master
    Is that to say you aren't an advocate of force on force training?
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  6. #20
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rick21
    There is as much difference in "gun shooting" and "gun fighting" as there is between punching a heavy bag and getting in the ring. Perceived skills change when bad things are coming back at you.

    We went out on Labor Day and did some FOF. We try to video our practice, this is one we did on "drawing against a drawn weapons". Everything except the knife was done at 3 yards. In the vid, the BG had to wait to fire until he got a visual cue. In this scenario it was me drawing my pistol in defense to seeing his pistol pointed at me. Also, to give me a small advantage we decided he would only do head shots, it didn't help. On the stationary and sidestep, he hit me at least 2 or 3 times before I could bring my pistol to a firing postition. In the real world the BG starts the fight and the GG responds. We wanted to find out just how much of a disadvantage the CCW would be in, in that situation.

    The popping sound on my POV is the BB's boncing off my mask.

    Drawing vs Drawn weapons - YouTube
    In my experience with FOF and going up against a drawn gun if you can GOTX dynamically enough so that the BG misses the first shot (think move before you draw, but draw as you move) you can get the first hit. Most BGs don't know you are going to move so they will shoot their first shot where you stood. Move your feet but lean the upper part of the body and get it out of the way as soon as possible. He who gets the first hit will have the advantage, if there is an advantage in a gunfight. Once you move keep moving while you shoot the BG to the ground. But above all have the mindset and will to keep fighting even if hit. When you take a hit it is not the time to slow down the fight but to speed it up, finish it NOW.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    You are closer to me than the tactical training is. Here is where I go:
    Home – Tactical Defense Institute - Tactical, Firearms Training, pistol, rifle, shotgun
    I highly recommend them. I also recommend the cheap motel in West Union shown on their accomodations attachment.
    ^ Thank you. :)

    Traveling, for me, currently, is the limiting factor. Sadly, none of the schools here in NE-Ohio has the facilities that TDI does, just a few hours south.

    That said, yes, TDI has been high on my "bucket list," since I started shooting in November of 2011.

  8. #22
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    I think it is super important and definitely on my list.


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    Glock 17, Dale Fricke Archangel, Wilderness Tactical belt.
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  9. #23
    Member Array rick21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    In my experience with FOF and going up against a drawn gun if you can GOTX dynamically enough so that the BG misses the first shot (think move before you draw, but draw as you move) you can get the first hit. Most BGs don't know you are going to move so they will shoot their first shot where you stood. Move your feet but lean the upper part of the body and get it out of the way as soon as possible. He who gets the first hit will have the advantage, if there is an advantage in a gunfight. Once you move keep moving while you shoot the BG to the ground. But above all have the mindset and will to keep fighting even if hit. When you take a hit it is not the time to slow down the fight but to speed it up, finish it NOW.
    Agreed, that's why we moved dynamically on forward angles. You have to make the BG miss. Stationary and side step got me shot. Moving on hard angles helped. Right forward angle, I didn't get hit. Left forward angle, we traded hits. There will always be a time problem. The average human reaction time is .25 seconds. If the GG has a 1.00 second draw, including reaction time, the BG .75 seconds to just pull the trigger. It was kind of the point of posting the vid, there is more to surviving a fight than markmanship alone. Had I solely relied on the traditional, plant your feet, face down range, look at the front sight and press the trigger I would have gotten shot every time. Also, drawing from real concealment and using an inside the waistband holster while moving and trying not to get shot is a skill set that has to be developed. It is one reason we have gone exclusively to AWIB, it seems to work best for drawing while moving.

  10. #24
    Member Array Lindy1933's Avatar
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    AWIB?
    Retired AF pilot, Vietnam FAC 1967-68

  11. #25
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    I've done FOF with Simmunitions. You would not think that it is a big deal, but the results are huge. In one scenario I was training with my wife and she was serving as a role player as a "bad" guy/active shooter approached. When it was over, people who were observing remarked how realistic her screaming was during the event. I had and have absolutely no recollection of her screaming. In another scenario, I was pulled to the ground by a woman who was being chased by a bad guy with a knife. I drew my pistol and made three hits on the bad guy, in a very dark room, while holding a flashlight in my weak hand. I managed to make good hits, but have no recollection of ever getting a sight picture. This type of training is worth every cent.

  12. #26
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G26Raven View Post
    I've done FOF with Simmunitions. You would not think that it is a big deal, but the results are huge. In one scenario I was training with my wife and she was serving as a role player as a "bad" guy/active shooter approached. When it was over, people who were observing remarked how realistic her screaming was during the event. I had and have absolutely no recollection of her screaming. In another scenario, I was pulled to the ground by a woman who was being chased by a bad guy with a knife. I drew my pistol and made three hits on the bad guy, in a very dark room, while holding a flashlight in my weak hand. I managed to make good hits, but have no recollection of ever getting a sight picture. This type of training is worth every cent.
    This statement is why I think learning to point shoot is SO important. In a SHTF situation most will become threat focus NOT sight focus. Most fights will happen in point shooting distance. Make it natural to just point and shoot and make hits. I think that to be one of the big reason LEOs have such a bad record for making fit in a fight.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  13. #27
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    I've learned quite a bit from FOF. If structured correctly, it is a very eye-opening experience.
    Bad Bob likes this.

  14. #28
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    Tigger pull minimums are the problem with New York.

  15. #29
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    When I was first able to do sims training, that opened my eyes. Its as close to the real thing as you will get. Other than manipulations with your EDC, FoF is the best training anyone can receive.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lindy1933 View Post
    AWIB?
    Sorry, it should have been AIWB. Appendix Inside WaistBand.

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