Is there a good reason for FOF training?

[40Bob]

but to say it is necessary to protect your family when looking at stats would tell anyone the chances of ever needing such training are so remote that a 6 point harness would be a much wiser purchase...

The reality is if most people would use the safety equipment installed in the car in a proper manner they would be much safer. Most of the accidents I saw or worked where people that were injured and killed while wearing seatbelts were not killed or injured because the seatbelt was inadequate, they were killed or injured because there vehicle compacted onto them and/or structurally failed.

To say that to buy an exotic safety system for your daily driver car (that most people would not use anyway) is somehow wiser than obtaining basic self defense training with the weapon you wish to carry is a more intelligent purchase is interesting to say the least. Ever try to change the radio station in a 6 point harness? I think I would have equated some advanced drivers training vs advance FOF training, that would have been more accurate than a hardware vs software argument.

statistics are statistically irrelevant.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[ScottM]

SCXDm9;
If you are scheduled for an S.I. class, be sure to ask the instructor for his opinion for the need of FOF.

I think you will get pretty much what you have read here.

[RC12]

I think any class offered to civilians that could/would increase the odds is a great idea.

Sadly, I compare some classes I've seen advertised with most of the people I've seen in the CHL classes I've been in.... A basic pistol operations course would be highly recommended, but they didn't seem the type to be interested in toting 1000 rounds of ammo to shoot over a 1 to 2 day course.

[Mike1956]

I think any class offered to civilians that could/would increase the odds is a great idea.

Sadly, I compare some classes I've seen advertised with most of the people I've seen in the CHL classes I've been in.... A basic pistol operations course would be highly recommended, but they didn't seem the type to be interested in toting 1000 rounds of ammo to shoot over a 1 to 2 day course.

I was surprised at how quickly the TDI classes I took filled up. I signed up in February for a three-day, 1600-round defensive handgun class being held in August, and got the second-to-last slot in a 40-seat class. I know this to be true because a couple friends of mine tried to sign up a week or so later, and were turned away. At the same time I signed up for the August class, I enrolled for an Active Shooter class being held in September, and got the last slot. Both classes had a varied mix of people there. Young to elderly, physically fit to anything but, and lots of different professions. Police, government contractors, retirees, and people there for their CHLs (TDI has a sixteen hour, 1000 round class which qualifies people for certification). One thing that really surprised me was the rarity of people taking the classes carrying concealed throughout. On the handgun I-III courses, I was the only one out of thirty people who remained concealed throoughout. In the active shooter course, about a third of the twenty-five participants were LEOs, who went with their duty rig. Of the rest, only a government contractor from Russia and me took the entire course carrying concealed.

[Harryball]

I have thought about it some more, since we are here anyway. If you are applying equal pressure with each hand, would it not actually be 50/50?

Nope, 100 reaction hand, 100 weapon hand, for a total of 100 each. No pushing or pulling..At least this is the way I look at it. I try to train to what my body will do under stress, not train it to do something else.

[TSiWRX]

Ever try to change the radio station in a 6 point harness?

Forget trying to change the radio station - let's talk about how long it takes to just get buckled-up and snugged-in (and how many - forget the drivers, let's talk about passengers, here!) would really want to ride around *that* compressed into their seats?

Or let's talk about how many would be willing to climb through a cage, on their way into the car?

How about all this, every time you stop for coffee or through your daily routines?

Just like you said, the safety measures we have in our everyday passenger cars are there for a reason, and they typically do quite well.

The car analogy really is too overplayed.


-----

I was surprised at how quickly the TDI classes I took filled up. I signed up in February for a three-day, 1600-round defensive handgun class being held in August, and got the second-to-last slot in a 40-seat class.

They're the only ones in the area with the facilities.

There's plenty of good instructors throughout Ohio (and ones that come through Ohio), but I don't think any has the resources that TDI has.

One thing that really surprised me was the rarity of people taking the classes carrying concealed throughout. On the handgun I-III courses, I was the only one out of thirty people who remained concealed throoughout. In the active shooter course, about a third of the twenty-five participants were LEOs, who went with their duty rig. Of the rest, only a government contractor from Russia and me took the entire course carrying concealed.

Yup. What's even more disheartening are the police officers who come to the class who are unarmed..... I guess at least they're getting themselves to a class, and that counts as a good beginning.

But at the same time, adding concealment - especially if you're playing towards absolute realism (i.e. using your true everyday gear and dressing as you would dress, every day) - adds many levels of difficulty and complexity to even basic manipulations. With safety as a primary concern, I know that a lot of shooters (myself included) tend to not go through any course with concealment prior to having run it, at least reasonably proficiently, with the gun "open."

[Mike1956]

They're the only ones in the area with the facilities.

There's plenty of good instructors throughout Ohio (and ones that come through Ohio), but I don't think any has the resources that TDI has.
What's even more disheartening are the police officers who come to the class who are unarmed..... I guess at least they're getting themselves to a class, and that counts as a good beginning.
But at the same time, adding concealment - especially if you're playing towards absolute realism (i.e. using your true everyday gear and dressing as you would dress, every day) - adds many levels of difficulty andcomplexity to even basic manipulations. With safety as a primary concern, I know that a lot of shooters (myself included) tend to not go through any course with concealment prior to having run it, at least reasonably proficiently, with the gun "open."

I combined your response for ease.
I have heard good things about several facilities in Ohio. I wound up loyal to TDI for several reasons which are neither here nor there, and you are right. Their facilities are awesome. Everything I have ever done with a pistol for the last several years has been from concealment. I run all the courses in my everyday attire and set-ups because that is the only way I ever carry. To be honest, I don't even own a decent open-carry rig, since I never do it and have no plans of doing so in the future. Only twice in all the exercises did my IWB set-up cause me any difficulties. The first time, we ran a fifty-some shot rapid fire/multiple target/movement exercise. A short time after I re-holstered, I unholstered quickly due to a very hot hip. The other time was during a draw/present/fire exercise which involved drawing and re-holstering about sixty times in a 10-minute period. I was fairly chafed and arm-weary well before the end of that one.

[TSiWRX]

^ Yep. I ran day 3 of Costa's HE01 from-concealment. I used a dedicated range/training copy of my carry holster, and ran it in my usual street clothing - I pretty much wear a T-shirt over jeans year-round, with no undershirt. I'm still carrying scars from that day, that's how badly it had chafed (and strangely enough, I honestly didn't feel it until I'd gotten home and was out of the shower and drying off!).

I currently make the concession of using an UnderArmour undershirt during training, when I go IWB, simply because I don't think that getting chafed should necessarily be a part of good training.

Costa actually encouraged me to run HE02 from-concealment, but I honestly did not feel that I would be properly honoring my line-mates, in doing so, as I knew that many of the techniques/positions would be new to me. Next year, for-sure.

[Mike1956]

^ Yep. I ran day 3 of Costa's HE01 from-concealment. I used a dedicated range/training copy of my carry holster, and ran it in my usual street clothing - I pretty much wear a T-shirt over jeans year-round, with no undershirt. I'm still carrying scars from that day, that's how badly it had chafed (and strangely enough, I honestly didn't feel it until I'd gotten home and was out of the shower and drying off!).

I currently make the concession of using an UnderArmour undershirt during training, when I go IWB, simply because I don't think that getting chafed should necessarily be a part of good training.

Costa actually encouraged me to run HE02 from-concealment, but I honestly did not feel that I would be properly honoring my line-mates, in doing so, as I knew that many of the techniques/positions would be new to me. Next year, for-sure.

I,too am generally in t-shirts and jeans or cargo shorts, but I absolutely have to wear an a-shirt between skin and rig, given a skin condition I have to deal with.

[TSiWRX]

^ I hear ya. I almost gave myself a skin condition, that day!!!

[Harryball]

^ I hear ya. I almost gave myself a skin condition, that day!!!

But it burns so good...LOL...I always wear a undershirt to keep my rig off my skin.

[DRM]

Is there a good reason for FOF training?

Well, I used to say this:

“The best reason I can think of for FoF training is that you get to go home afterwards, as opposed to the hospital or morgue.”

Then I had a Marine break my leg for me during FoF training, so I guess I was only half right.

[Crucible]

FoF training IS gunfight training. And of all the training I've done, FoF has been the most eye opening....bar none:

How quickly things happen...from zero to tunnel visioned lightspeed in a literal second. How fast you must be drawing from concealment. How fast someone with bad intent can be on you. How you're going to die if you just stand there. How I never see my sights, and how I scored good hits (while moving) anyway. (Point shooting should be on your agenda too.) How scared you should be of knives. How you better develop muscle memory to reload and clear malfunctions, fast. About how many doggone times I was hit in the firing hand by the "bad guy"(s) and how one should be versed in reverting to the off hand.

And many other lessons, all incredibly valuable. And not a "real" shot was fired.

C-

[DRM]

Crucible
FoF training IS gunfight training. And of all the training I've done, FoF has been the most eye opening....bar none:

How quickly things happen...from zero to tunnel visioned lightspeed in a literal second. How fast you must be drawing from concealment. How fast someone with bad intent can be on you. How you're going to die if you just stand there. How I never see my sights, and how I scored good hits (while moving) anyway. (Point shooting should be on your agenda too.) How scared you should be of knives. How you better develop muscle memory to reload and clear malfunctions, fast. About how many doggone times I was hit in the firing hand by the "bad guy"(s) and how one should be versed in reverting to the off hand.

And many other lessons, all incredibly valuable. And not a "real" shot was fired.

C-

Well said...

I hate getting shot in the hands with SIMS, Airsoft, too for that matter.

[TSiWRX]

^

My CCW Shooting AAR--Now with Moar Graphic Pics on pg 29 & 30 - AR15.Com Mobile

I found it very interesting that his right hand injuries played to what many of us see with our own and our partners' hands, in FoF.