Is there a good reason for FOF training?

This is a discussion on Is there a good reason for FOF training? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is a question that many ask and many answer it with a NO I can make good hits on the range shooting paper. So ...

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Thread: Is there a good reason for FOF training?

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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Is there a good reason for FOF training?

    This is a question that many ask and many answer it with a NO I can make good hits on the range shooting paper. So why do I need to spend the money for FOF training? Here is what Grossman says about stress inoculation doing some type of FOF.

    A training sergeant from one major western city told me that his city had been having a significant problem with officers firing far too many shots with drastically low hit ratios. He said that on the firing range his officers could get around 90 percent hits, but on the street they were lucky to hit with 20 percent of the bullets fired. When the sergeant was ordered to call major police departments around the country to see if others were having the same problem, he found that the vast majority of departments were. One agency called it the “metro spray.” He also found that a small minority of departments had fixed the problem and were getting over a 90 percent hit ratio in real, life-and-death shooting events. The California Highway Patrol, Salt Lake City P.D., Toledo P.D. and other pioneers across America are now reporting extraordinary hit rates, while firing very few rounds. One of the key distinguishing characteristics that differentiates these departments from others is their training. In particular, in-service training that provides stress inoculation with paint bullets or some other kind of force-on-force training with marking capsules. Lt. Col. Dave Grossman
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    I spent around a grand and sixty hours of my time on force on force training just this year, so yes, I believe it is important.
    "Who are the ones that we kept in charge? Killers, thieves, and lawyers"

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    A training sergeant from one major western city told me that his city had been having a significant problem with officers firing far too many shots with drastically low hit ratios. He said that on the firing range his officers could get around 90 percent hits, but on the street they were lucky to hit with 20 percent of the bullets fired. When the sergeant was ordered to call major police departments around the country to see if others were having the same problem, he found that the vast majority of departments were. One agency called it the “metro spray.” He also found that a small minority of departments had fixed the problem and were getting over a 90 percent hit ratio in real, life-and-death shooting events. The California Highway Patrol, Salt Lake City P.D., Toledo P.D. and other pioneers across America are now reporting extraordinary hit rates, while firing very few rounds. One of the key distinguishing characteristics that differentiates these departments from others is their training. In particular, in-service training that provides stress inoculation with paint bullets or some other kind of force-on-force training with marking capsules. Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, On Combat ...
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    Judging from the lack of responses, I take it not many here regard force on force training to be relevant. Interesting, given the title of website.
    "Who are the ones that we kept in charge? Killers, thieves, and lawyers"

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    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Judging from the lack of responses, I take it not many here regard force on force training to be relevant. Interesting, given the title of website.
    Could be that, or since it's Saturday, some people (read: me) like to sleep in.

    I believe force on force training is extremely relevant and an essential for anybody that carries. That being said, I personally haven't participated in any FOF training at this point, but I would very much like to. (It's ok, I'm still young; I'm just getting started!)
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    Some things I learned in my very first force-on-force session:
    Even if I have the drop on a bad guy, he can probably get a round on me before I can react. We ran the drill three times, and the best I did was a tie. Actions are quicker than reactions;
    A determined bad guy could not care less about one's assertiveness and command voice;
    If he has his hand in his pocket, he can draw and fire before I can draw and fire;
    The more I practice a particular drill, the better I become. Punching paper from a stationary position isn't really a drill.
    HotGuns, First Sgt and DRM like this.
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    Senior Member Array Caertaker's Avatar
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    Given the recent incident in New York City where the LEOs were responsible for shooting 9 by-standers perhaps Mayor Bloomberg should invest in FOF training for his officers instead of worrying how large of a soda one can buy. No criticism of LEOs is intended.

    Just How Many Bystanders Did New York Police Shoot? - National - The Atlantic Wire

    Back on track, FOF training is on my list of things to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caertaker View Post
    Given the recent incident in New York City where the LEOs were responsible for shooting 9 by-standers perhaps Mayor Bloomberg should invest in FOF training for his officers instead of worrying how large of a soda one can buy. No criticism of LEOs is intended.

    Just How Many Bystanders Did New York Police Shoot? - National - The Atlantic Wire

    Back on track, FOF training is on my list of things to do.
    I feel sorry for any LEOs (and anyone else, as far as that goes) who find themselves shackled by the incompetence, political correctness of and lack of trust placed in them by an unqualified chain of command.
    "Who are the ones that we kept in charge? Killers, thieves, and lawyers"

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    There is as much difference in "gun shooting" and "gun fighting" as there is between punching a heavy bag and getting in the ring. Perceived skills change when bad things are coming back at you.

    We went out on Labor Day and did some FOF. We try to video our practice, this is one we did on "drawing against a drawn weapons". Everything except the knife was done at 3 yards. In the vid, the BG had to wait to fire until he got a visual cue. In this scenario it was me drawing my pistol in defense to seeing his pistol pointed at me. Also, to give me a small advantage we decided he would only do head shots, it didn't help. On the stationary and sidestep, he hit me at least 2 or 3 times before I could bring my pistol to a firing postition. In the real world the BG starts the fight and the GG responds. We wanted to find out just how much of a disadvantage the CCW would be in, in that situation.

    The popping sound on my POV is the BB's boncing off my mask.

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    If I could afford it I would do it. In the past I have played paintball, and recently I attended my first IDPA match -- talk about an awakening!! Standing and punching holes in paper is easy. IDPA or FoF is something everyone needs to try once.
    --Jason--

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    I think that FOF is VERY important. I dont care how good of a target shooter you are, nothing is equivalent to trying to shoot while dodging incoming rounds.

    If you are doing FOF scenarios, you will learn to reload under fire, use cover, take aim and conserve ammo, control your breathing, learn when to use sights and when not to, all sorts of things that one would never think of when getting in a shoot.
    Being able to shoot a 100% score on a B27 means nothing other than you can shoot your gun and hit a stationary target that is standing still and letting you shoot at it. Its nothing like firing under stress with the adrenaline flow that goes with it.

    FOF is more realistic. The beauty of it is that you can learn from your mistakes. You dont get that luxury much in the real world when the bullets are flying both ways.
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    VIP Member Array 40Bob's Avatar
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    You do need the foundation of good marksmanship. FOF is very important to winning the fight.
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    Senior Member Array stevem174's Avatar
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    When I read this headline, I thought...is there a good reason NOT to have FOF training.
    Don't do things you don't want to explain to the Paramedics!

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    Senior Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Judging from the lack of responses, I take it not many here regard force on force training to be relevant. Interesting, given the title of website.
    ^ I'm sorta a neighbor. At least a fellow Ohioan.

    Where are you getting your training. There's almost no local resources here in my area.

    Thanks!

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    Every one want’s to be a "top gun" but it's not going to happen. If you figure it out we all want to know because I don't think there is an easy solution

    someone told me one time shooting is ease to do but a life time to master

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