Why did I not have to take a training course?

This is a discussion on Why did I not have to take a training course? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Bill MO So once again we have those who want and see the Government as the answer to the problem. What ever ...

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Thread: Why did I not have to take a training course?

  1. #61
    Distinguished Member Array Arborigine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    So once again we have those who want and see the Government as the answer to the problem. What ever happened to personal responsibility, if .
    Long gone for the majority. example, look at how many drivers no longer use turn signals. They know better and choose to ignore the law. Still, they are better drivers than those who cannot pass the basic driving test or written test. Should we remove requirements for driving tests so those who are totally incompetent can drive too? Check Belgium's history for that answer
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  3. #62
    Member Array tet4's Avatar
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    Long gone for the majority. example, look at how many drivers no longer use turn signals. They know better and choose to ignore the law. Still, they are better drivers than those who cannot pass the basic driving test or written test. Should we remove requirements for driving tests so those who are totally incompetent can drive too? Check Belgium's history for that answer
    Unfortunately when it comes to CCW licenses, that doesn't play out with the stats. Read the gunfacts document and you will find that ccw citizens are the more responsible section of society, behave themselves quite well, and have a much better shot record than trained police. Furthermore, there is no indication that ccw people with licenses from states that require training are any more safe or have a better shot record than states that do not. So what's the point?

  4. #63
    Senior Member Array dV8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootslxa View Post
    I didn't have to take a training course to get my license. I highly think this should be required. I had training from an instructor, although it was of my own accord and not an official class. It was more of a "hey come shoot my guns, if you don't know how I'll teach you" kinda thing.
    It would make me feel better if I knew that everybody else that carried concealed in the area around me had received some sort of official training.

    Would anybody else feel that way? Thoughts?

    &

    Do any Alabama people know if there are any courses offered in central Alabama?
    The second amendment assumes that we will all be trained in using guns by our parents, or whoever else trains us to be good citizens.
    If this is not the case we should at least be trained to be mature enough and competent enough to get properly trained in any potentially hazardous activity that we may be inclined to take up as an activity or career.
    It is not within the bounds of our Constitution for the government to mandate any training or permits a citizen may need to purchase in order to exercise our given "Rights".

    It should be like this for everyone, sadly it is not.

    A good option would be to have everyone serve a minimum of 2 years in the armed forces between high school and college.
    Last edited by dV8r; September 28th, 2012 at 01:10 PM.
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  5. #64
    Member Array lyz_grace's Avatar
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    Looks like I'm late to the party, but wanted to add.

    I used to think the same way, but honestly it would have taken me much longer to get my own CCP if that were the case. I was raised around guns and still go shooting with the cousins anytime they come into town for the holidays. I didn't need to learn basic safety and I wouldn't have been able to afford a class if it were required. I got my permit well over a year ago and HAVE taken an NRA-certified handgun class since then, but if it were required for a permit I would have spent many months without being able to defend myself.

  6. #65
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    This is an interesting topic. I suspect we'd all agree that it would be great if everyone got training. Many of us would also agree that government-imposed training mandates can be problematic for a number of reasons.

    I think MS came up with a good solution. We do not have a training mandate... but there is an incentive to get training. We have the regular CCW permit, which 'shall' be issued to all who pay the fee and pass the background check. We also have an "enhanced" permit, which allows the carrier to carry in places that wouldn't otherwise be allowed (churches, courthouses, etc). Basically, it allows you to carry anywhere except where armed law enforcement is already present (prisons, police stations, courtroom-in-session, etc), or where prohibited by federal law. All of the CCW-ers I know have either already gotten or are planning to get the "IC" (instructor-certified) enhanced permit, because when you have it, the list of places you can't carry is very short and easy to remember.

    I took 2 full days of private training at a cost of $275 to get my permit endorsement. Add to that the need to miss 2 days of work, and you can see how such requirements can become a 'poll tax' of sorts that precludes lower-income individuals from exercising their right to self defense. If I were a single mother, or a retiree living on a fixed income, or anyone else struggling to make ends meet, I probably wouldn't be living in the best neighborhood, and I'd *NEED* to be able to defend myself, but if the training + lost wages cost over $400 -- it wouldn't even be an option. Imposing such barriers without regard to the impact on less fortunate law-abiding citizens sends a "let them eat cake" message about which citizens really have the right to self defense.

    Another way to encourage training is for volunteers to provide it for low cost. I know of at least one range that offers the same 2-day course I took (in a group setting) for $50, as a public service. Such programs are a great way to give back to the community, but it takes qualified volunteers to make it work.
    "...people who carry a gun understand that they are arming themselves against a very unlikely event... People who arm themselves are not confused about the odds. They are concerned about the stakes. -Kathy Jackson
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  7. #66
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    The second amendment guarantees our right to keep and bear arms. It does not require training. While training is recommended for any skill, that's up to the individual. Hopefully, a person responsible enough to care about defending themselves and their loved ones and responsible enough to get a CHL, will also take the time to train. But, again, this is not a requirement, nor should it be, as the more regulations there are, the more our right will be diluted.
    Ben

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    Senior Member Array Happypuppy's Avatar
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    I not like the idea of a super citizen with more rights based on training. The minute you start putting any restrictions , rules and regulations it snowballs.


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    Senior Member Array Beans's Avatar
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    Offer CCW/firearm safety Classes as an elective in high school like they do drivers ed. Opps they don't offer drivers ed courses any more either
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  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happypuppy View Post
    I disagree . The Heller decision explains including the word regulate

    "The prefatory clause “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State” merely announces a purpose. It does not limit or expand the scope of the operative clause “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms."

    "The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable citizen militias, thereby enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The Antifederalists therefore sought to preserve the citizens’ militia by denying Congress the power to abridge the right of individuals to keep and bear arms."

    Training of any sort is excluded and never an intention
    You've proven why I'm not a Supreme Court justice. But where is the discrepancy in agreement between you, me, and SCOTUS' Heller decision?
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    I'm betting QK was being facetious.
    I agree, and I don't bet against it. But he defines the training snob so well, that I wanted to highlight. I see it in CA more than in TN or GA or FL or any other right-thinking state. I guess it's human nature to like to feel special.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  12. #71
    Distinguished Member Array Arborigine's Avatar
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    Here in California most of the basic CCW course is spent learning about the law. How to carry legally, safely, options of concealment and holstering, when it is acceptable to draw, and how to do so in a manner that is effective and not likely to get you arrested or shot. Different demonstrations are given to show how quickly a situation can go bad, and how much time you have to react. Very basic skills are taught, as most know how to fire and handle a weapon safely before attending. It is so basic that very few fail, and those who do would be a menace to society if armed. Is a course like that really too much to ask?
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  13. #72
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arborigine View Post
    Is a course like that really too much to ask?
    Not too much to ask. Knowledge is good. But if it's so patently basic and simple, one has to ask how useful can it possibly be. (BTDT in CA, myself, with the CHL two-step.)

    But given that the 2A is Constitutional protection against infringement of the right, requiring government-dictated training, IMO, goes too far.
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    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    Do any Alabama people know if there are any courses offered in central Alabama?
    Look up Suarez International and search for CR Williams or Don Robison for Central Al training.

    Or come a little North and take some from Randy Harris out of Chattanooga (he actually teaches near Ider, AL).

  15. #74
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    The Jefferson County Sheriffs office offers free bi-weekly classes, basically an introduction to your handgun class. There's classroom time, and live fire on their range after the class. You even get a nice certificate :)
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  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    While that statement seems to be true from what one hears and see reported but I have not seen any report, nor do I know of any record to be kept, on how many die because they were not trained to handle the situation they faced. You hear the stories from those who live to tell it but there is not much heard from those who are dead.
    From what I have read, in previous threads here, is that there is no difference in gun-related accidents between states with training requirements and those without.
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