My Gunfight

This is a discussion on My Gunfight within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by pittypat21 That being said, The only thing I take from My Gunfights is where the good cover is that I used in ...

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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    That being said, The only thing I take from My Gunfights is where the good cover is that I used in my little daydream. I have My Gunfight every time I walk into a new building, walk into a parking lot, etc. Its a way that I look for cover and concealment and what not.


    ^^^^^^^YEP^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


    I try to do this as well.

    Thanks for the thought provoking thread.










    You will never begin in the fight you have planned for. You will begin in the fight the other guy has planned for.
    Move in a manner that leads him into your fight should he press his attack.
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    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

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  3. #17
    Member Array lilmule's Avatar
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    I agree the Israeli draw isnt for everyone,think in their case it involved a primary teaching method for any or all as mosad agents could in back water areas get ahold of just about anything.Ive practiced it,modified it a tad no wiggle or turning,yet the possibility of a ftf enters into the picture.So regulating it to a secondary backup,and just bought a pa 63,da /sa. 9x18 mak
    And regardless we will never know how we react to the real thing,cant yell time out.I like smaller calibers I can shoot and hide like 32 acp can also hit a pop can at 50 ft with them,or shoot either hand or off hand as not much recoil.Llama especial etc not small by 32 standards.
    Hope you also teach situational awareness.

  4. #18
    Member Array Tayopo's Avatar
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    HOLA a slight suggestion for those that have invested in a laser pointing device. Draw, quickly point your - empty - pistol, point aiming, at a target, say a light bulb, hanging chain etc., but 'not' at your TV. he he

    Go through the complete firing process by actually dry firing the pistol - this is where a quality revolver really shines.

    Practice this daily as many times as you feel relaxed with and shortly you will 'not' need the sights, nor that laser light for normal (?) combat ranges as encountered in a city, or inside of a building, including a bedroom. You will be just as accurate, as in your dreams.

    'Practicing' with a 'Laser sight is almost perfect if you can stand in front of a large mirror and fire at your own image, however, remember that using a a laser sight at night, also gives the baddie a nice target..

    But 'always' also learn to 'use your sights' & practice trigger control by practicing live fire up to 50 - 100 meters, preferably using one handed shooting, since, as has been pointed out, one hand may be occupied or injured.

    I only wish that the laser sighting device had been available while I was learning combat pistol shooting. As it was, I went through 5 -10 boxes of full powr reloads daily in day light, and no moon nights for about two years.

    I was at a permanent BP check station, and after about 10 pm there was so little traffic that I could reload them in between periods. I continued this after I was reassigned, at home.

    One might say that I became quite proficient, and it paid off in spades

    Don Jose de La Mancha
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  5. #19
    Member Array Lindy1933's Avatar
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    Thanks, I needed that. I am torn between convenience of everyday carry and the optimum carry for killing. The P-238 is very nice to carry. I have practiced with it enough to draw, get the safety off, aim and shoot while moving off the ‘X‘ with respectable times. The laser adds another dimension to close in shooting. The target .22 with its long barrel is deadly accurate to 50 yards but the P-238 is not, even with practice, a killing shot(s) is not a given. Basically it is the same thing with the .38 J-frame. We practice every Friday out of town and the typical ‘draw from concealed carry to killing shot’ times are getting better with different directions of movement. Each week we fire a few shots from 25 yards. Here the single action of the J-frame and its excellent trigger are better than the P-238 while the double action .38 and the P-238 are about the same for accuracy.

    Perhaps I should consider a different carry gun though it would be hard to find one better to conceal and carry full time than the 16 oz pair that I have now. I have tried a double stack S&W .40c and the grip is too big for my hand. But thanks again and I will think about the alternatives.
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    Retired AF pilot, Vietnam FAC 1967-68

  6. #20
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    Bill,

    While we've had a few disagreements in the past... This was an excellent OP.

    I'm guilty of thinking about MY gunfight... and truth be told... Mine is probably the most likely scenario for me... but... I know that what your article says is true.... If it ever does happen, it can very well be one of those n in a gazillion deals...

    I have never carried Israeli style... don't believe it's wise. For close in work, the DA pull of my p64 is manageable (at about 18#) but for long shots, I'll pull the hammer back. The long shots give you the opportunity to seek cover from which to shoot. The close ones, not so much.

    I have not trained as much as you have and have had very limited FOF training.. I need to do that...I know it.

    I do believe that most encounters occur at close range... Look at the guy I posted about that has had two close encounters...

    And, I am not a LEO, so I am not going into volatile situations every day... in fact, like most of us here, I try to stay out of such scenarios... Not that I couldn't bee in a theater and have some madman come in the back door with evil black guns, shooting at any target he chooses... But I might not have been there as it was posted, anyway.

    Stuff happens... and for me, it seems... Stuff happens,a nd happens, and happens. I am as prepared as I can be... right now.... I might be better prepared tomorrow...
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    If you are trying to learn, then take a class and learn. Like the post said, you have your Gunfight in your head. You have become one dimensional. You need to have your eyes opened to the speed and violence of an encounter...You said in another thread that you do not see the reasons for going past 7 yards. You need to step outside of what you think the average gun fight is going to be. If all you train for is the average, what happens when the fight is not average?
    Particularly the bolded section reflects the reality that I've encountered. Yes, there's the road-rager where you can see it coming, but what about the guy standing politely next to you on the elevator in the car garage? At the risk of feeding the egos of the many many jarheads here , I live by General James N. Mattis's quote of "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet."
    __________________________________
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  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    And, I am not a LEO, so I am not going into volatile situations every day... in fact, like most of us here, I try to stay out of such scenarios... Not that I couldn't bee in a theater and have some madman come in the back door with evil black guns, shooting at any target he chooses... But I might not have been there as it was posted, anyway.
    Oak I am not picking at you at all. Im just going to make a point about LEOs and Civilians as it pertains to BGs. The BGs police run into are the same BGs you will run into. They are no different. The " I am not a LEO excuse " Doesnt work for me. We have to be better, because we will be behind the curve. The BG will dictate the fight.
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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Oak I am not picking at you at all. Im just going to make a point about LEOs and Civilians as it pertains to BGs. The BGs police run into are the same BGs you will run into. They are no different. The " I am not a LEO excuse " Doesnt work for me. We have to be better, because we will be behind the curve. The BG will dictate the fight.





    ^^^^^^There is so much^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    TRUTH in that highlight .

    The police 95% of the time are going into a situation with more facts, and usually a specific individual on a call, or traffic stop, therefore their SA is at its heightened best.

    Our encounter will be the other 5% where its the two thugs you did not see in the parking lot behind the dark van, and all of a sudden you are down on the ground fighting for your life.
    You will need to get your pistol out in a nano-second, and be able to get going on the trigger, like yesterday.
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

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    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy." -- Ernest Benn

  10. #24
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    Nice article aside from the anti C3 spin. I think most folks who carry C3 have a strong awareness of the disadvantage they are creating for themselves and are prepared to act accordingly if they are in a situation where they won't have time to rack a slide. There are many ways to protect yourself in an SD scenario. Your sidearm isn't always the best option or even necessary...or even safe if someone already has the drop on you. Many Tueller drill videos I see end with the GG getting stabbed. Perhaps instead of reaching for your gun you find a barrier to take cover behind or run (dependent on physical condition) to create space between you and the attacker. Maybe you're best off keeping both hands in front of you to stop the attack. Who knows what your options will be.

    As is common, the article reflects a one sided risk analysis. As we shouldn't assume the sort of SD scenario we'll face, we also shouldn't assume we'll always follow proper gun handling basics and that we won't have an ND. I wish stats were available to show the frequency of ND's vs SD scenarios where a handgun is fired. The choice to carry C3 means higher risk in certain SD scenarios but it totally eliminates the possibility of an ND that could hurt/kill you or someone else. Risk should be evaluated from all angles.

  11. #25
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    Good post! Thanks for the reminder and examples.
    BigJon


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  12. #26
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3wggl View Post
    Nice article aside from the anti C3 spin. I think most folks who carry C3 have a strong awareness of the disadvantage they are creating for themselves and are prepared to act accordingly if they are in a situation where they won't have time to rack a slide. There are many ways to protect yourself in an SD scenario. Your sidearm isn't always the best option or even necessary...or even safe if someone already has the drop on you. Many Tueller drill videos I see end with the GG getting stabbed. Perhaps instead of reaching for your gun you find a barrier to take cover behind or run (dependent on physical condition) to create space between you and the attacker. Maybe you're best off keeping both hands in front of you to stop the attack. Who knows what your options will be.

    As is common, the article reflects a one sided risk analysis. As we shouldn't assume the sort of SD scenario we'll face, we also shouldn't assume we'll always follow proper gun handling basics and that we won't have an ND. I wish stats were available to show the frequency of ND's vs SD scenarios where a handgun is fired. The choice to carry C3 means higher risk in certain SD scenarios but it totally eliminates the possibility of an ND that could hurt/kill you or someone else. Risk should be evaluated from all angles.
    Dude, get to a class. You are supporting a way that most here do not adhere to.....
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  13. #27
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Reality tends to trump dreams/imaginations. Although it's IMPOSSIBLE to prepare for the unknown, consistent training will most assuredly help your reactions in a self defense situation. Those that make the choice of carrying C3, RIP! I personally try to take advantage of anything that might give me a "leg up" on my adversaries.

    Movement MUST be incorporated in all of your training, even if it's only dryfire in your living room. You most likely will NOT be assuming the "Weaver" when you are reacting to a life threatening situation.

    Practice "scanning" after your imaginary neutralization of the threat. Many folks stop at the "bang bang, you're dead" point and forget that there could be accomplices attacking from different directions.

    Learn to utlize/look for cover. Even in a "close" encounter (21 feet or less), you may be able to move and put something between you and your adversary. Can you utilize cover and take a snap shot and be accurate?

    Do you practice "unpredictablility" in your training? Instead of lateral movement, use angular movement...Instead of firing from a crouched position, go to your knees and fire, or prone, or stomach, or back...You may not always be standing when you defend yourself.

    Are you practicing SA in your dreams? If so, why did you encounter that "self defense" situation? Why didn't your SA, or your "gut feelings, or your "spidey" senses alert you and keep you safe?

    It's good to develop a "plan" based on "your dream gunfight", but what do you do IF your plan falls apart? Do you have a back up plan?

    Do you train using "stress" as a test to your reactions? Even in dryfire in your living room, jog in place for five minutes, drop and knock out 25 pushups, 25 situps and then grab that laser sighted weapon of yours and hold steady and dryfire on that living room lamp BG...Did the laser stay steady? If no laser, was your hand steady for the sight picture, even tho your heart rate was elevated?

    Obviously, I could go on and on...The point I'm trying to make, just like the OP, is that our "Dream Gunfight" probably will never occur. There will always be variances and unknowns which will affect our surviveablility...One can only train, train, and train some more, in hope that deep inside, this training will take over, and will give us that extra edge needed to survive a self defense encounter... JMO
    Last edited by First Sgt; October 4th, 2012 at 10:12 PM.
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    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3wggl View Post
    Nice article aside from the anti C3 spin. I think most folks who carry C3 have a strong awareness of the disadvantage they are creating for themselves and are prepared to act accordingly if they are in a situation where they won't have time to rack a slide. There are many ways to protect yourself in an SD scenario. Your sidearm isn't always the best option or even necessary...or even safe if someone already has the drop on you. Many Tueller drill videos I see end with the GG getting stabbed. Perhaps instead of reaching for your gun you find a barrier to take cover behind or run (dependent on physical condition) to create space between you and the attacker. Maybe you're best off keeping both hands in front of you to stop the attack. Who knows what your options will be.

    As is common, the article reflects a one sided risk analysis. As we shouldn't assume the sort of SD scenario we'll face, we also shouldn't assume we'll always follow proper gun handling basics and that we won't have an ND. I wish stats were available to show the frequency of ND's vs SD scenarios where a handgun is fired. The choice to carry C3 means higher risk in certain SD scenarios but it totally eliminates the possibility of an ND that could hurt/kill you or someone else. Risk should be evaluated from all angles.
    No, it doesn't, unless you never intend to actually make your weapon hot.
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  15. #29
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by First Sgt View Post
    Reality tends to trump dreams/imaginations. Although it's IMPOSSIBLE to prepare for the unknown, consistent training will most assuredly help your reactions in a self defense situation. Those that make the choice of carrying C3, RIP! I personally try to take advantage of anything that might give me a "leg up" on my adversaries.

    Movement MUST be incorporated in all of your training, even if it's only dryfire in your living room. You most likely will NOT be assuming the "Weaver" when you are reacting to a life threatening situation.

    Practice "scanning" after your imaginary neutralization of the threat. Many folks stop at the "bang bang, you're dead" point and forget that there could be accomplices attacking from different directions.

    Learn to utlize/look for cover. Even in a "close" encounter (21 feet or less), you may be able to move and put something between you and your adversary. Can you utilize cover and take a snap shot and be accurate?

    Do you practice "unpredictablility" in your training? Instead of lateral movement, use angular movement...Instead of firing from a crouched position, go to your knees and fire, or prone, or stomach, or back...You may not always be standing when you defend yourself.

    Are you practicing SA in your dreams? If so, why did you encounter that "self defense" situation? Why didn't your SA, or your "gut feelings, or your "spidey" senses alert you and keep you safe?

    It's good to develop a "plan" based on "your dream gunfight", but what do you do IF your plan falls apart? Do you have a back up plan?

    Do you train using "stress" as a test to your reactions? Even in dryfire in your living room, jog in place for five minutes, drop and knock out 25 pushups, 25 situps and then grab that laser sighted weapon of yours and hold steady and dryfire on that living room lamp BG...Did the laser stay steady? If no laser, was your hand steady for the sight picture, even tho your heart rate was elevated?

    Obviously, I could go on and on...The point I'm trying to make, just like the OP, is that our "Dream Gunfight" probably will never occur. The well always be variances and unknowns which will affect our surviveablility...One can only train, train, and train some more, in hope that deep inside, this training will take over, and will give us that extra edge needed to survive a self defense encounter... JMO
    Brother, the next beer is on me. They can be maddening, cant they....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  16. #30
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    This last weekend I did SI's TMCO class not only do you learn Trauma Medicine there is also FOF with your needing to patch yourself up. In one of my gunfights I had a shirt/gun hang-up and my gun ended up on the ground. Talk about your fight not going the way you seen it in your mind. In the time it took to dive on the gun, roll and come up shooting, if the BGs gun had not jammed (because he said bang, bang 3-4 time), I'd of taken 3-4 hits. So no matter how the actual gunfight goes never stop fighting. Had I taken those hits in actual fight I would have needed to fight through the hits and still shot the BG to the ground. (THEN I could have died) but not before. You can always be the hero in your mind!

    Who you really are makes a big difference in how you will and can fight. I've had pride in my ability to handle myself, but the weekend showed me I'm starting to suck. I've had some health issues this last year (I also turned 64 today) and it showed this last week-end. So I need to re-think just what I can and can't do.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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