This is a discussion on My Gunfight within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ScottM
No, not really even close. You should really try it in force-on-froce and see what you are lacking.
You probably wouldn't ...
October 4th, 2012 08:53 PM
Yes, close, but C3 will generally require different tactics vs having a gun C1.
Originally Posted by ScottM
C3 isn't exactly adored here either...but yeah, not me.
October 4th, 2012 10:06 PM
The chance of you failing to get your gun into battery with a properly seated and chambered round under the real life stress of being suddenly and without warning thrust into a deadly threat situation when you are microseconds away from death is astronomical.
Absolutely no one I have ever met who advocates carrying without a round in the chamber is a certified firearms or deadly force instructor. None. You may believe in your heart you are safer carrying that way. You are not. It's not just my opinion, it's the opinion of thousands of professional instructors.
There's always those who feel they know more than the instructor. That their situation is somehow different. Yet none of them have ever gone so far as to put their money where their mouth is, and actually taken the time, endured the effort, and laid out real money to become a recognized and credentialed firearms trainer/instructor. I wonder why that is? They are merely amateurs.
Carry without a chambered round if you wish. It's your life. But don't pretend to think you're going to convince those who know better it's a valid, or somehow safer way to carry a gun. It just doesn't wash.
My theory is that those who must carry with an empty gun, deep down inside their subconscious know, or believe they are not really competent with a gun. No doubt they can make the gun work and hit a target when shooting... and often times shoot quite accurately. But they still don't believe they are competent enough to carry the gun properly. So they feel it's safer if they don't carry the gun properly. Why they feel incompetent is almost always due to a falsely believed myth... or a lack of professional training. And they will somehow espouse that they don't need that professional training.
There are not two sides to the argument. One side is simply incorrect.
I'm sorry if it hurts anyone's feelings. Life is not fair, and is not easy. Facts are facts. Everything else is B.S.
The original post is spot on. It's not biased against carrying Condition 3. Condition 3 is absolutely an inferior way to carry a defensive firearm and no professional instructor will advocate it for valid reasons.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
October 4th, 2012 11:00 PM
There I fixed it for ya.
Originally Posted by SL1ckOne
There was no "SPIN", just the facts. That someone chooses to not accept the facts is their problem.
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
And Lord, if today is truly the day you call me home
Let me die in a pile of empty brass."
October 4th, 2012 11:13 PM
Expect the best in people but prepare for the worst. you never know. Thanks for a great post. Very much appreciated.
October 5th, 2012 12:59 AM
October 5th, 2012 04:43 AM
Only the rest of your life
Originally Posted by 3wggl
October 5th, 2012 07:27 AM
Am I angry? Nope not at all. Its not my life you are messing with. Yes its coming from a guy that quit smoking. Have I taken any courses. As a matter of fact I have, here is a small list. Magpul, Rob Pincus, S.I...Next may Dave Spaulding. 7 Years with our S.R.T. team. My Diet, glad you asked, I stick to a low carb diet to keep my girlish figure. Thanks for asking.
Originally Posted by 3wggl
Now that, that is out of the way. I still think you are a danger to yourself and to society. You do not know how to use your gun, ill bet you have no idea. That is what I am making reference to. If you are ever in a SD encounter..Listen well, your gunfight is so far out of reality, you are liable to get killed or, better yet, kill someone else because of you lacking. Is that better form???
EDIT to Add: This isnt only about the condition you carry your weapon in. Its also about your mindset, and lack of training. All of which is evident in your posts.
Don"t let stupid be your skill set....
And Shepards we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee,
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, So that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command,
And we shall flow a river forth to Thee, And teeming with souls shall it ever be,
October 5th, 2012 08:10 AM
3wggl, I started to PM you, but decided to post this comment, as I'm sure there are others lurking with your thought process on this thread.
I really don't wish to dog-pile you. That is not my intention here. However, I've seen it time and time again, where someone who is used to thinking for them self, but generally untrained and/or new to firearms, will try to convince all of us gun-slinging knuckle-draggers that there is a valid reason to carry on an empty chamber. Bark'n sums the answer beautifully here:
There are many members here, who used to carry that way and through education, training and experience have come 180 degrees to realizing how wrong we are. I am one, who had it drilled into me at an early age by the Coast Guard, that even during the most dangerous drug-interdiction boardings, we were not allowed to carry chambered. It was actually a booking offense if we were caught. The plain fact is, that it was simply a CYA move from the command, in an attempt to reduce the possibility of innocent civilian casualties inflicted by a poorly-trained maritime law enforcement unit. By the same logic, they should have just insisted that we be unarmed, just to be sure (and given the level of training of some of the boarding officers I've seen, I would have preferred that they'd been unarmed as well).
Originally Posted by Bark'n
There are many others here on the board, who originally had your mindset when they joined, but through study, research and training, have recognized the error and arrogance of their thinking.
I apologize for the digression from the topic of "My Gunfight", but the path you are on will likely preclude you from ever being able to participate in the gun fight that you may be trying to prepare for.
'Clinging to my guns and religion
October 5th, 2012 09:57 AM
Although I acknowledge your extensive expertise over myself and will defer to you on a couple of my thoughts, I can't help but disagree on a couple of your points. 1.) C3 is obviously a safer way of maintaining your handguns. Safer in the unlikely event you are in an SD scenario? No, but your gun certainly isn't useless and it's better than not having one at all. 2.) C3 is viable and has a history of effective utilization even within police and military organizations where the threat level is much higher than that of a civilian....not just talking Israelis here.
Originally Posted by Bark'n
I'm well aware certified firearm/deadly force instructors will recommend C1....and why wouldn't they? Isn't your job to ensure your clients are best prepared for SD scenarios? You'll be best prepared to face a greater number of scenarios with a round in the chamber. Do you, however, inform your clients of the need to consider the risks of maintaining their handguns in C1 and the possibility of ND's vs the likelihood they'll ever face an SD scenario..or an SD scenario where they won't have a time to chamber a round or squeeze the trigger an extra time on a revolver?
Your theory is pretty good, except I'd say the fear that our competence could potentially fail us at some point is in our conscious mind. Perhaps I should stop reading accounts of ND's as they have an impact on my decision to prefer C3. The number of accounts out there of well trained firearms handlers having ND's indicates to me that you can be competent yet still have an ND because complacency can take over. I've been around firearms my entire life and have never had an ND but do fear that one mistake so many seem to make...no matter their level of competence.
October 5th, 2012 10:03 AM
Since I am new to concealed carry (going to class in Nov.), can someone explain what C1 and C3 means. I assume it has something to do with carrying a round in the chamber, etc. Thanks.
October 5th, 2012 10:11 AM
Thanks, appreciate the thoughtful comments. I've said it many times....I have no interest in convincing anyone they should carry C3. I'm here to learn and have strongly been considering a transition to C1 but I'm just not confident yet it would be prudent. The dog-piling on has no impact and is not a concern...in fact, I value all of the feedback because it's coming from highly respected certified trainers in many instances.
Originally Posted by WHEC724
I've been pursuing additional training but wish I could find courses developed around the C3 method of carry. I understand those courses won't be popular as C3 is not the ideal platform for SD but some folks are OK with the added risk and want to be able to maximize their proficiency under C3.
October 5th, 2012 10:24 AM
There are actually five conditions of readiness:
Originally Posted by Jstonemo
Condition 0 - A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, and safety off.
Condition 1 - A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, and safety on.
Condition 2 - A round chambered, full magazine in place, and hammer down.
Condition 3 - Chamber empty, full magazine in place, and hammer down.
Condition 4 - Chamber empty, no magazine, and hammer down.
October 5th, 2012 11:05 AM
I think for the extra challenge I'll carry C4, LoL
Gun Control: Using both hands
October 5th, 2012 11:10 AM
Conditions 0-4 ? Umm...That would actually be 5 conditions.....
The empty chamber carry for Israelis was more a function of multiple different kinds of pistols issued to soldiers with little or no prior pistol training.Remember, in the early days Israel did not have a robust domestic arms manufacturing capability and they took whatever they could get from whomever offered it. So if the guys I'm training have a Helwan, a P38, a Browning HP, a beretta, a tokarev, and a 1911 it would take an inordinately long amount of time to make them proficient with each....so how do we solve the problem? Carry them ALL empty chamber with the safety OFF and rack the slide to chamber a round. It was more a solution for limited training time, wide array of pistols, and in many cases least common denominator students.
Now, assuming ALL your problems are at distance , and NOT applying direct pressure to you,and both hands are available to work the slide, and you have not been injured before you are able to access your gun and you are not having to use one arm to fend off the BG while you access your gun, then you'll probably be OK with empty chamber carry....But that is a LOT of assumptions when the penalty for guessing wrong could be death or crippling injury....
Modern pistols have internal passive safeties that make them drop safe. And a straight trigger finger habituated from practice acts to keep you from accidentally firing the gun when you handle it. As such there is really no reason other than unreasonable fear to run around with a non functional gun on your hip. But we are all free to do what we want.
October 5th, 2012 11:21 AM
There are 5 Carry Conditions
Condition 4: Unloaded, no magazine in the weapon and no round in the chamber
Condition 3: Magazine in the weapon, empty chamber
Condition 2: Magazine in weapon, round in chamber, hammer decocked
Condition 1: Magazine in weapon, round in chamber, hammer cocked, safety engaged
Condition 0: Magazine in weapon, round in chamber, hammer cocked, safety is NOT engaged
These conditions do not apply to all semi-auto handguns. Some people like to append the list to add a .5 for striker fired weapons like the Glock
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