My Gunfight

This is a discussion on My Gunfight within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ScottM No, not really even close. You should really try it in force-on-froce and see what you are lacking. You probably wouldn't ...

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Thread: My Gunfight

  1. #46
    Member Array 3wggl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    No, not really even close. You should really try it in force-on-froce and see what you are lacking.

    You probably wouldn't feel at home there. C3 is frowned upon highly.

    Reason I asked is that there used to be someone on there who posted just like you...
    Yes, close, but C3 will generally require different tactics vs having a gun C1.

    C3 isn't exactly adored here either...but yeah, not me.

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  3. #47
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    The chance of you failing to get your gun into battery with a properly seated and chambered round under the real life stress of being suddenly and without warning thrust into a deadly threat situation when you are microseconds away from death is astronomical.

    Absolutely no one I have ever met who advocates carrying without a round in the chamber is a certified firearms or deadly force instructor. None. You may believe in your heart you are safer carrying that way. You are not. It's not just my opinion, it's the opinion of thousands of professional instructors.

    There's always those who feel they know more than the instructor. That their situation is somehow different. Yet none of them have ever gone so far as to put their money where their mouth is, and actually taken the time, endured the effort, and laid out real money to become a recognized and credentialed firearms trainer/instructor. I wonder why that is? They are merely amateurs.

    Carry without a chambered round if you wish. It's your life. But don't pretend to think you're going to convince those who know better it's a valid, or somehow safer way to carry a gun. It just doesn't wash.

    My theory is that those who must carry with an empty gun, deep down inside their subconscious know, or believe they are not really competent with a gun. No doubt they can make the gun work and hit a target when shooting... and often times shoot quite accurately. But they still don't believe they are competent enough to carry the gun properly. So they feel it's safer if they don't carry the gun properly. Why they feel incompetent is almost always due to a falsely believed myth... or a lack of professional training. And they will somehow espouse that they don't need that professional training.

    There are not two sides to the argument. One side is simply incorrect.

    I'm sorry if it hurts anyone's feelings. Life is not fair, and is not easy. Facts are facts. Everything else is B.S.

    The original post is spot on. It's not biased against carrying Condition 3. Condition 3 is absolutely an inferior way to carry a defensive firearm and no professional instructor will advocate it for valid reasons.
    OD*, First Sgt, Bad Bob and 5 others like this.
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  4. #48
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SL1ckOne View Post
    But it's all their preference, like riding a motorcycle without GAS.
    There I fixed it for ya.


    There was no "SPIN", just the facts. That someone chooses to not accept the facts is their problem.
    My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

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  5. #49
    New Member Array rmoberly's Avatar
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    Expect the best in people but prepare for the worst. you never know. Thanks for a great post. Very much appreciated.

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array blitzburgh's Avatar
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    I'm a Glock man (G31,32,33) and carry with one racked and ready to go and do the same with my other pistols too (non-Glocks).

    I can understand why some might not feel comfortable doing so, but time and training should eventually warm them up to the idea of doing so.

    When every second counts, the last thing I want to do is need an extra one to be ready to defend myself.

    -- I don't always post from my mobile but when I do, I prefer Tapatalk.
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  7. #51
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3wggl View Post
    Slower than your method for sure, but not by much
    Only the rest of your life
    Bark'n likes this.

  8. #52
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3wggl View Post
    Poor form, Harry. I respect your opinion and you've made some great points that have led me to strongly consider C1 and additional training. Are you angry I won't do everything I can to ensure my self preservation in an SD scenario? This coming from a guy who's smoked how many years? Have you taken any defensive driving courses? How's the diet? And you want to give me a hard time because I'm going to handicap myself for certain SD scenarios?
    Am I angry? Nope not at all. Its not my life you are messing with. Yes its coming from a guy that quit smoking. Have I taken any courses. As a matter of fact I have, here is a small list. Magpul, Rob Pincus, S.I...Next may Dave Spaulding. 7 Years with our S.R.T. team. My Diet, glad you asked, I stick to a low carb diet to keep my girlish figure. Thanks for asking.

    Now that, that is out of the way. I still think you are a danger to yourself and to society. You do not know how to use your gun, ill bet you have no idea. That is what I am making reference to. If you are ever in a SD encounter..Listen well, your gunfight is so far out of reality, you are liable to get killed or, better yet, kill someone else because of you lacking. Is that better form???

    EDIT to Add: This isnt only about the condition you carry your weapon in. Its also about your mindset, and lack of training. All of which is evident in your posts.
    tcox4freedom and Bad Bob like this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  9. #53
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    3wggl, I started to PM you, but decided to post this comment, as I'm sure there are others lurking with your thought process on this thread.

    I really don't wish to dog-pile you. That is not my intention here. However, I've seen it time and time again, where someone who is used to thinking for them self, but generally untrained and/or new to firearms, will try to convince all of us gun-slinging knuckle-draggers that there is a valid reason to carry on an empty chamber. Bark'n sums the answer beautifully here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    ...
    There are not two sides to the argument. One side is simply incorrect...
    There are many members here, who used to carry that way and through education, training and experience have come 180 degrees to realizing how wrong we are. I am one, who had it drilled into me at an early age by the Coast Guard, that even during the most dangerous drug-interdiction boardings, we were not allowed to carry chambered. It was actually a booking offense if we were caught. The plain fact is, that it was simply a CYA move from the command, in an attempt to reduce the possibility of innocent civilian casualties inflicted by a poorly-trained maritime law enforcement unit. By the same logic, they should have just insisted that we be unarmed, just to be sure (and given the level of training of some of the boarding officers I've seen, I would have preferred that they'd been unarmed as well).

    There are many others here on the board, who originally had your mindset when they joined, but through study, research and training, have recognized the error and arrogance of their thinking.

    I apologize for the digression from the topic of "My Gunfight", but the path you are on will likely preclude you from ever being able to participate in the gun fight that you may be trying to prepare for.
    OD*, tcox4freedom, Bark'n and 1 others like this.
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  10. #54
    Member Array 3wggl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    The chance of you failing to get your gun into battery with a properly seated and chambered round under the real life stress of being suddenly and without warning thrust into a deadly threat situation when you are microseconds away from death is astronomical.

    Absolutely no one I have ever met who advocates carrying without a round in the chamber is a certified firearms or deadly force instructor. None. You may believe in your heart you are safer carrying that way. You are not. It's not just my opinion, it's the opinion of thousands of professional instructors.

    There's always those who feel they know more than the instructor. That their situation is somehow different. Yet none of them have ever gone so far as to put their money where their mouth is, and actually taken the time, endured the effort, and laid out real money to become a recognized and credentialed firearms trainer/instructor. I wonder why that is? They are merely amateurs.

    Carry without a chambered round if you wish. It's your life. But don't pretend to think you're going to convince those who know better it's a valid, or somehow safer way to carry a gun. It just doesn't wash.

    My theory is that those who must carry with an empty gun, deep down inside their subconscious know, or believe they are not really competent with a gun. No doubt they can make the gun work and hit a target when shooting... and often times shoot quite accurately. But they still don't believe they are competent enough to carry the gun properly. So they feel it's safer if they don't carry the gun properly. Why they feel incompetent is almost always due to a falsely believed myth... or a lack of professional training. And they will somehow espouse that they don't need that professional training.

    There are not two sides to the argument. One side is simply incorrect.

    I'm sorry if it hurts anyone's feelings. Life is not fair, and is not easy. Facts are facts. Everything else is B.S.

    The original post is spot on. It's not biased against carrying Condition 3. Condition 3 is absolutely an inferior way to carry a defensive firearm and no professional instructor will advocate it for valid reasons.
    Although I acknowledge your extensive expertise over myself and will defer to you on a couple of my thoughts, I can't help but disagree on a couple of your points. 1.) C3 is obviously a safer way of maintaining your handguns. Safer in the unlikely event you are in an SD scenario? No, but your gun certainly isn't useless and it's better than not having one at all. 2.) C3 is viable and has a history of effective utilization even within police and military organizations where the threat level is much higher than that of a civilian....not just talking Israelis here.

    I'm well aware certified firearm/deadly force instructors will recommend C1....and why wouldn't they? Isn't your job to ensure your clients are best prepared for SD scenarios? You'll be best prepared to face a greater number of scenarios with a round in the chamber. Do you, however, inform your clients of the need to consider the risks of maintaining their handguns in C1 and the possibility of ND's vs the likelihood they'll ever face an SD scenario..or an SD scenario where they won't have a time to chamber a round or squeeze the trigger an extra time on a revolver?

    Your theory is pretty good, except I'd say the fear that our competence could potentially fail us at some point is in our conscious mind. Perhaps I should stop reading accounts of ND's as they have an impact on my decision to prefer C3. The number of accounts out there of well trained firearms handlers having ND's indicates to me that you can be competent yet still have an ND because complacency can take over. I've been around firearms my entire life and have never had an ND but do fear that one mistake so many seem to make...no matter their level of competence.

  11. #55
    New Member Array Jstonemo's Avatar
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    Since I am new to concealed carry (going to class in Nov.), can someone explain what C1 and C3 means. I assume it has something to do with carrying a round in the chamber, etc. Thanks.

  12. #56
    Member Array 3wggl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHEC724 View Post
    3wggl, I started to PM you, but decided to post this comment, as I'm sure there are others lurking with your thought process on this thread.

    I really don't wish to dog-pile you. That is not my intention here. However, I've seen it time and time again, where someone who is used to thinking for them self, but generally untrained and/or new to firearms, will try to convince all of us gun-slinging knuckle-draggers that there is a valid reason to carry on an empty chamber. Bark'n sums the answer beautifully here:



    There are many members here, who used to carry that way and through education, training and experience have come 180 degrees to realizing how wrong we are. I am one, who had it drilled into me at an early age by the Coast Guard, that even during the most dangerous drug-interdiction boardings, we were not allowed to carry chambered. It was actually a booking offense if we were caught. The plain fact is, that it was simply a CYA move from the command, in an attempt to reduce the possibility of innocent civilian casualties inflicted by a poorly-trained maritime law enforcement unit. By the same logic, they should have just insisted that we be unarmed, just to be sure (and given the level of training of some of the boarding officers I've seen, I would have preferred that they'd been unarmed as well).

    There are many others here on the board, who originally had your mindset when they joined, but through study, research and training, have recognized the error and arrogance of their thinking.

    I apologize for the digression from the topic of "My Gunfight", but the path you are on will likely preclude you from ever being able to participate in the gun fight that you may be trying to prepare for.
    Thanks, appreciate the thoughtful comments. I've said it many times....I have no interest in convincing anyone they should carry C3. I'm here to learn and have strongly been considering a transition to C1 but I'm just not confident yet it would be prudent. The dog-piling on has no impact and is not a concern...in fact, I value all of the feedback because it's coming from highly respected certified trainers in many instances.

    I've been pursuing additional training but wish I could find courses developed around the C3 method of carry. I understand those courses won't be popular as C3 is not the ideal platform for SD but some folks are OK with the added risk and want to be able to maximize their proficiency under C3.

  13. #57
    Member Array 3wggl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jstonemo View Post
    Since I am new to concealed carry (going to class in Nov.), can someone explain what C1 and C3 means. I assume it has something to do with carrying a round in the chamber, etc. Thanks.
    There are actually five conditions of readiness:

    Condition 0 - A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, and safety off.
    Condition 1 - A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, and safety on.
    Condition 2 - A round chambered, full magazine in place, and hammer down.
    Condition 3 - Chamber empty, full magazine in place, and hammer down.
    Condition 4 - Chamber empty, no magazine, and hammer down.

  14. #58
    Member Array ArmedPreacher's Avatar
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    I think for the extra challenge I'll carry C4, LoL
    Gun Control: Using both hands

  15. #59
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    Conditions 0-4 ? Umm...That would actually be 5 conditions.....

    The empty chamber carry for Israelis was more a function of multiple different kinds of pistols issued to soldiers with little or no prior pistol training.Remember, in the early days Israel did not have a robust domestic arms manufacturing capability and they took whatever they could get from whomever offered it. So if the guys I'm training have a Helwan, a P38, a Browning HP, a beretta, a tokarev, and a 1911 it would take an inordinately long amount of time to make them proficient with each....so how do we solve the problem? Carry them ALL empty chamber with the safety OFF and rack the slide to chamber a round. It was more a solution for limited training time, wide array of pistols, and in many cases least common denominator students.

    Now, assuming ALL your problems are at distance , and NOT applying direct pressure to you,and both hands are available to work the slide, and you have not been injured before you are able to access your gun and you are not having to use one arm to fend off the BG while you access your gun, then you'll probably be OK with empty chamber carry....But that is a LOT of assumptions when the penalty for guessing wrong could be death or crippling injury....

    Modern pistols have internal passive safeties that make them drop safe. And a straight trigger finger habituated from practice acts to keep you from accidentally firing the gun when you handle it. As such there is really no reason other than unreasonable fear to run around with a non functional gun on your hip. But we are all free to do what we want.
    Bark'n, tcox4freedom and ScottM like this.
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  16. #60
    Senior Member Array wdbailey's Avatar
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    There are 5 Carry Conditions

    Condition 4: Unloaded, no magazine in the weapon and no round in the chamber

    Condition 3: Magazine in the weapon, empty chamber

    Condition 2: Magazine in weapon, round in chamber, hammer decocked

    Condition 1: Magazine in weapon, round in chamber, hammer cocked, safety engaged

    Condition 0: Magazine in weapon, round in chamber, hammer cocked, safety is NOT engaged

    These conditions do not apply to all semi-auto handguns. Some people like to append the list to add a .5 for striker fired weapons like the Glock

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