This is a discussion on My Gunfight within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ScottM No, not really even close. You should really try it in force-on-froce and see what you are lacking. You probably wouldn't ...
The chance of you failing to get your gun into battery with a properly seated and chambered round under the real life stress of being suddenly and without warning thrust into a deadly threat situation when you are microseconds away from death is astronomical.
Absolutely no one I have ever met who advocates carrying without a round in the chamber is a certified firearms or deadly force instructor. None. You may believe in your heart you are safer carrying that way. You are not. It's not just my opinion, it's the opinion of thousands of professional instructors.
There's always those who feel they know more than the instructor. That their situation is somehow different. Yet none of them have ever gone so far as to put their money where their mouth is, and actually taken the time, endured the effort, and laid out real money to become a recognized and credentialed firearms trainer/instructor. I wonder why that is? They are merely amateurs.
Carry without a chambered round if you wish. It's your life. But don't pretend to think you're going to convince those who know better it's a valid, or somehow safer way to carry a gun. It just doesn't wash.
My theory is that those who must carry with an empty gun, deep down inside their subconscious know, or believe they are not really competent with a gun. No doubt they can make the gun work and hit a target when shooting... and often times shoot quite accurately. But they still don't believe they are competent enough to carry the gun properly. So they feel it's safer if they don't carry the gun properly. Why they feel incompetent is almost always due to a falsely believed myth... or a lack of professional training. And they will somehow espouse that they don't need that professional training.
There are not two sides to the argument. One side is simply incorrect.
I'm sorry if it hurts anyone's feelings. Life is not fair, and is not easy. Facts are facts. Everything else is B.S.
The original post is spot on. It's not biased against carrying Condition 3. Condition 3 is absolutely an inferior way to carry a defensive firearm and no professional instructor will advocate it for valid reasons.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
Expect the best in people but prepare for the worst. you never know. Thanks for a great post. Very much appreciated.
I'm a Glock man (G31,32,33) and carry with one racked and ready to go and do the same with my other pistols too (non-Glocks).
I can understand why some might not feel comfortable doing so, but time and training should eventually warm them up to the idea of doing so.
When every second counts, the last thing I want to do is need an extra one to be ready to defend myself.
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"Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God." - Benjamin Franklin
"Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn." - C.S. Lewis
Now that, that is out of the way. I still think you are a danger to yourself and to society. You do not know how to use your gun, ill bet you have no idea. That is what I am making reference to. If you are ever in a SD encounter..Listen well, your gunfight is so far out of reality, you are liable to get killed or, better yet, kill someone else because of you lacking. Is that better form???
EDIT to Add: This isnt only about the condition you carry your weapon in. Its also about your mindset, and lack of training. All of which is evident in your posts.
Don"t let stupid be your skill set....
3wggl, I started to PM you, but decided to post this comment, as I'm sure there are others lurking with your thought process on this thread.
I really don't wish to dog-pile you. That is not my intention here. However, I've seen it time and time again, where someone who is used to thinking for them self, but generally untrained and/or new to firearms, will try to convince all of us gun-slinging knuckle-draggers that there is a valid reason to carry on an empty chamber. Bark'n sums the answer beautifully here:
There are many others here on the board, who originally had your mindset when they joined, but through study, research and training, have recognized the error and arrogance of their thinking.
I apologize for the digression from the topic of "My Gunfight", but the path you are on will likely preclude you from ever being able to participate in the gun fight that you may be trying to prepare for.
'Clinging to my guns and religion
I'm well aware certified firearm/deadly force instructors will recommend C1....and why wouldn't they? Isn't your job to ensure your clients are best prepared for SD scenarios? You'll be best prepared to face a greater number of scenarios with a round in the chamber. Do you, however, inform your clients of the need to consider the risks of maintaining their handguns in C1 and the possibility of ND's vs the likelihood they'll ever face an SD scenario..or an SD scenario where they won't have a time to chamber a round or squeeze the trigger an extra time on a revolver?
Your theory is pretty good, except I'd say the fear that our competence could potentially fail us at some point is in our conscious mind. Perhaps I should stop reading accounts of ND's as they have an impact on my decision to prefer C3. The number of accounts out there of well trained firearms handlers having ND's indicates to me that you can be competent yet still have an ND because complacency can take over. I've been around firearms my entire life and have never had an ND but do fear that one mistake so many seem to make...no matter their level of competence.
Since I am new to concealed carry (going to class in Nov.), can someone explain what C1 and C3 means. I assume it has something to do with carrying a round in the chamber, etc. Thanks.
I've been pursuing additional training but wish I could find courses developed around the C3 method of carry. I understand those courses won't be popular as C3 is not the ideal platform for SD but some folks are OK with the added risk and want to be able to maximize their proficiency under C3.
Condition 0 - A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, and safety off.
Condition 1 - A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, and safety on.
Condition 2 - A round chambered, full magazine in place, and hammer down.
Condition 3 - Chamber empty, full magazine in place, and hammer down.
Condition 4 - Chamber empty, no magazine, and hammer down.
I think for the extra challenge I'll carry C4, LoL
Gun Control: Using both hands
Conditions 0-4 ? Umm...That would actually be 5 conditions.....
The empty chamber carry for Israelis was more a function of multiple different kinds of pistols issued to soldiers with little or no prior pistol training.Remember, in the early days Israel did not have a robust domestic arms manufacturing capability and they took whatever they could get from whomever offered it. So if the guys I'm training have a Helwan, a P38, a Browning HP, a beretta, a tokarev, and a 1911 it would take an inordinately long amount of time to make them proficient with each....so how do we solve the problem? Carry them ALL empty chamber with the safety OFF and rack the slide to chamber a round. It was more a solution for limited training time, wide array of pistols, and in many cases least common denominator students.
Now, assuming ALL your problems are at distance , and NOT applying direct pressure to you,and both hands are available to work the slide, and you have not been injured before you are able to access your gun and you are not having to use one arm to fend off the BG while you access your gun, then you'll probably be OK with empty chamber carry....But that is a LOT of assumptions when the penalty for guessing wrong could be death or crippling injury....
Modern pistols have internal passive safeties that make them drop safe. And a straight trigger finger habituated from practice acts to keep you from accidentally firing the gun when you handle it. As such there is really no reason other than unreasonable fear to run around with a non functional gun on your hip. But we are all free to do what we want.
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There are 5 Carry Conditions
Condition 4: Unloaded, no magazine in the weapon and no round in the chamber
Condition 3: Magazine in the weapon, empty chamber
Condition 2: Magazine in weapon, round in chamber, hammer decocked
Condition 1: Magazine in weapon, round in chamber, hammer cocked, safety engaged
Condition 0: Magazine in weapon, round in chamber, hammer cocked, safety is NOT engaged
These conditions do not apply to all semi-auto handguns. Some people like to append the list to add a .5 for striker fired weapons like the Glock