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My Gunfight

8K views 77 replies 32 participants last post by  Rexster 
#1 ·
Here is some info on the gunfight we all have in our mind, but the question is do we have it right. Hope it helps someone.

"...Assumptions are awesome when they're actually right, but they sure can hurt when you're wrong......"

by Larry Correia


I've been a concealed carry instructor for five years, I hang out with a bunch of gun nuts, and I've been around self-defense buffs for most of my adult life. In that time I've seen a recurring theme, and unfortunately it can be a dangerous one. Many of us have something in common.

I call it My Gunfight. We've imagined a scene, a violent encounter, in our head. And in this scene, we take decisive action and we prevail and save the day. Many of us have a mental fabrication of what My Gunfight is going to be like.

Most people who chose to carry a gun have done this. I have myself. It isn't anything to be ashamed of. In fact, it really helps develop a proper mindset to be able to realistically assess what kind of terrible things can happen to you and start laying some groundwork about how we want to respond.

The problem comes in when we make assumptions about My Gunfight. Assumptions are awesome when they're actually right, but they sure can hurt when you're wrong.

I have had students tell me that they never practice at anything past conversational distance, because the average gunfight takes place at only seven feet. See, in Their Gunfight, the bad guy will be conveniently placed at a distance that they can actually hit stuff.

Sadly, there's no such thing as an average gunfight. The only thing they have in common is that they all suck. If you only prepare for a gunfight inside an elevator, it will be a bummer when the crazy guy starts shooting at you across the mall. I've had students tell me that if the assailant is that far away, then they wouldn't be justified in shooting. That's also a mistake. There are hundreds of reasons why you might need to shoot somebody out past conversational distance. And if you find yourself in a situation where you need to, you dang well better have practiced.

Another assumption I get from many students is that they will have plenty of time to draw their gun and get it into action. Oftentimes these folks want to carry with an empty chamber. There is a misconception that this is somehow safer, and besides in Their Gunfight, they'll have plenty of time, and both hands available, to get their pistol into action.

In real life, the bad guys may not be as compliant as the ones in Your Gunfight. In real life, the violence may occur so quickly that you do not have time to rack the slide. Or you may have one hand occupied holding the bad guy back from stabbing you in the head with a screwdriver. The point is, you won't know until it happens. Even best case scenario you've added a significant amount of time to your draw stroke (and if you've been in a fight to the death, you know that even a second is a significant amount of time), and one more chance to fumble and screw up.

During my regular class, I integrate a role-playing session. We go through several realistic scenarios with students and actors armed with rubber weapons. All of these scenarios are based on actual cases, and like real life, most of them tend to happen quickly.

Usually after going through the role-plays, nobody is tempted to carry chamber empty anymore. A fatal assumption was pointed out in Their Gunfight, and they adjust accordingly. If you're really worried about carrying with a loaded chamber, get a good, safe holster that keeps the gun secure and protects the trigger. If you still have a mental hang up, switch to a gun that has a heavier trigger or other safety devices. Anything is faster and safer than assuming you'll be in a position to rack a slide.

These are just a few examples of assumptions caused by My Gunfight. One of my personal favorite students of all time was hung up, not only on carrying chamber empty, but he also had a belief that he would "easily" be able to neutralize the bad guy by shooting them in the leg. No, I kid you not. He brought this up repeatedly during class, even after I pointed out that it could be just as fatal only slower, the same lethal force in the eyes of the law, and with the added benefit of not being nearly as effective at incapacitating an actual threat. What did I know? I was only the guy he was paying to teach him this stuff.

During the role-play, he was lucky enough to get a scenario that I use to demonstrate the principles of a Tueller drill. Without going into too many details, I'm playing the part of an obviously dangerous threat, interrupted in the act of committing a forcible felony on a third person, with the ability and opportunity to cause him serious bodily harm, and I just happen to start twenty-one feet away with a rubber knife.

I charged. He went for his gun. Not only did he fail to rack the slide and shoot me in the leg like he had talked about, he managed to draw the gun, fumble, and actually tossed it across the room. I stabbed him a few times, and as a happy bonus, picked his gun up before I fled the scene.

His Gunfight had not taken into account things like speed, adrenalin, or confusion. Last I checked, he was carrying a chamber loaded Glock, in a good holster, and practicing a bunch.

That was an extreme example, but I think all of us need to watch out for the decisions we make based upon our assumptions. Be smart, be realistic, and don't be afraid to keep an open mind. Just because My Gunfight makes sense to me, doesn't mean that the world cares one bit.
 
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#2 ·
Great post and nice you took the time to do so. I think it is good to bring this up as many do indeed imagine what would happen often and when it does it is totally different. Training and real world scenarios are a great recommendation.
 
#3 ·
Great post!

I see that alot, the assumptions. I think what helps me with that is my LEO experience. For 6 years I worked the highest crime areas in Ft Worth, Texas on the PD. I responded to 12-18 high priority calls (crimes in progress) each shift. Every call was different, you train and prepare for the worst. Sometimes you get lucky and its not so bad.
 
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#4 ·
Good post Bill. I see by the lack of responses that you may have hit a nerve with some folks. It is amazing how many people are heros in their own minds. You see it here as well, with all the post about not needed to chamber a round, not needing to practice beyond 7 yards. Some how, these people have gotten a false sense of what really goes down.....
 
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#6 ·
My workout at the range, (just a berm out side of town) is usually starting at 30' and working up to "bad breath range". Are you saying I need to work out starting at 50 yards, 100 yards, 200 yards? If so I'm gonna need a bigger gun! I would think anything that far away could probably be avoided. Bear in mind I have never been in a "shooting" situation. I don't mean to start any ill feelings, just tryin to learn...
 
#9 ·
... Are you saying I need to work out starting at 50 yards, 100 yards, 200 yards? ...
Learn to hold over. A 9mm should make it out a couple hundred yards (not that I think it likely to be needed unless someone shooting up a mall with a rifle).

(And, yes, I look for cover and firing angles in any mall I go to. I'm amazed at how few have been shot up.)
 
#8 ·
In My Gunfight I never miss, I always get head shots (RIGHT between the eyes), and the bad guys barely get a shot off at me. I save all the hostages, and the mayor throws a parade in my honor. Also, I'm sometimes wearing a mask and cape.

That being said, The only thing I take from My Gunfights is where the good cover is that I used in my little daydream. I have My Gunfight every time I walk into a new building, walk into a parking lot, etc. Its a way that I look for cover and concealment and what not.
 
#16 ·
That being said, The only thing I take from My Gunfights is where the good cover is that I used in my little daydream. I have My Gunfight every time I walk into a new building, walk into a parking lot, etc. Its a way that I look for cover and concealment and what not.


^^^^^^^YEP^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


I try to do this as well.

Thanks for the thought provoking thread.










You will never begin in the fight you have planned for. You will begin in the fight the other guy has planned for.
Move in a manner that leads him into your fight should he press his attack.
Mathew Courtney


Man is equally incapable of seeing the nothingness from which he emerges and the infinity in which he is engulfed.
Blaise Pascal
 
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#11 ·
I really liked what the late Paul Gomez had to say, and here, I'll paraphrase.

Mr. Gomez said that living in the continental United States, it's very, very unlikely that we'd ever need to go to our concealed-carry pistol as defense against violent crime against either us or our loved ones.

However, that, when we do find that we need our gun, we will need it "absolutely."

And at that moment, we'll be so far out of the bell-curve that we will become that statistical "n of 1" - a unique example.

I truly believe that unscripted force-on-force training is the best at showing us that anything - truly anything - can happen.
 
#13 · (Edited)
You didnt make me mad...LOL...Sorry if I came across that way, it was not intended..What was intended...Was to get you thinking about how this stuff works...
 
#14 ·
Good stuff Bill MO. There ya go again making us think.

I would say that most CCW gunfights will happen at less than 10 feet. The majority of civillian/CCW fights are a result of muggings, rapes and car jackings and none of those happen much past arms length. For that reason most of my practice is at 10 feet and in. That said, never practicing beyond the mythical 7 yards is a bad idea. As Suarez says, "we don't know what our fight will be". None of us know what tomorrow will bring, if I should have to take 100 yard shot, it would be a good if I had put in some practice.
 
#15 ·
My assumptions:
It may or may not begin at distance;
I may or not see it coming;
It will go down very, very quickly;
It may involve a couple rounds, or it may involve many rounds;
My own injury may be the first indication it is happening;
I will fall to the lowest level of my training when it happens;
It will not be a static event;

My hopes:
My lowest level of training is adequate to see me through;
It will never happen.
I have worked enough to be ready
 
#17 ·
I agree the Israeli draw isnt for everyone,think in their case it involved a primary teaching method for any or all as mosad agents could in back water areas get ahold of just about anything.Ive practiced it,modified it a tad no wiggle or turning,yet the possibility of a ftf enters into the picture.So regulating it to a secondary backup,and just bought a pa 63,da /sa. 9x18 mak
And regardless we will never know how we react to the real thing,cant yell time out.I like smaller calibers I can shoot and hide like 32 acp can also hit a pop can at 50 ft with them,or shoot either hand or off hand as not much recoil.Llama especial etc not small by 32 standards.
Hope you also teach situational awareness.
 
#18 ·
HOLA a slight suggestion for those that have invested in a laser pointing device. Draw, quickly point your - empty - pistol, point aiming, at a target, say a light bulb, hanging chain etc., but 'not' at your TV. he he

Go through the complete firing process by actually dry firing the pistol - this is where a quality revolver really shines.

Practice this daily as many times as you feel relaxed with and shortly you will 'not' need the sights, nor that laser light for normal (?) combat ranges as encountered in a city, or inside of a building, including a bedroom. You will be just as accurate, as in your dreams.

'Practicing' with a 'Laser sight is almost perfect if you can stand in front of a large mirror and fire at your own image, however, remember that using a a laser sight at night, also gives the baddie a nice target..

But 'always' also learn to 'use your sights' & practice trigger control by practicing live fire up to 50 - 100 meters, preferably using one handed shooting, since, as has been pointed out, one hand may be occupied or injured.

I only wish that the laser sighting device had been available while I was learning combat pistol shooting. As it was, I went through 5 -10 boxes of full powr reloads daily in day light, and no moon nights for about two years.

I was at a permanent BP check station, and after about 10 pm there was so little traffic that I could reload them in between periods. I continued this after I was reassigned, at home.

One might say that I became quite proficient, and it paid off in spades

Don Jose de La Mancha
 
#19 ·
Thanks, I needed that. I am torn between convenience of everyday carry and the optimum carry for killing. The P-238 is very nice to carry. I have practiced with it enough to draw, get the safety off, aim and shoot while moving off the ‘X‘ with respectable times. The laser adds another dimension to close in shooting. The target .22 with its long barrel is deadly accurate to 50 yards but the P-238 is not, even with practice, a killing shot(s) is not a given. Basically it is the same thing with the .38 J-frame. We practice every Friday out of town and the typical ‘draw from concealed carry to killing shot’ times are getting better with different directions of movement. Each week we fire a few shots from 25 yards. Here the single action of the J-frame and its excellent trigger are better than the P-238 while the double action .38 and the P-238 are about the same for accuracy.

Perhaps I should consider a different carry gun though it would be hard to find one better to conceal and carry full time than the 16 oz pair that I have now. I have tried a double stack S&W .40c and the grip is too big for my hand. But thanks again and I will think about the alternatives.
 
#20 ·
Bill,

While we've had a few disagreements in the past... This was an excellent OP.

I'm guilty of thinking about MY gunfight... and truth be told... Mine is probably the most likely scenario for me... but... I know that what your article says is true.... If it ever does happen, it can very well be one of those n in a gazillion deals...

I have never carried Israeli style... don't believe it's wise. For close in work, the DA pull of my p64 is manageable (at about 18#) but for long shots, I'll pull the hammer back. The long shots give you the opportunity to seek cover from which to shoot. The close ones, not so much.

I have not trained as much as you have and have had very limited FOF training.. I need to do that...I know it.

I do believe that most encounters occur at close range... Look at the guy I posted about that has had two close encounters...

And, I am not a LEO, so I am not going into volatile situations every day... in fact, like most of us here, I try to stay out of such scenarios... Not that I couldn't bee in a theater and have some madman come in the back door with evil black guns, shooting at any target he chooses... But I might not have been there as it was posted, anyway.

Stuff happens... and for me, it seems... Stuff happens,a nd happens, and happens. I am as prepared as I can be... right now.... I might be better prepared tomorrow...
 
#22 ·
And, I am not a LEO, so I am not going into volatile situations every day... in fact, like most of us here, I try to stay out of such scenarios... Not that I couldn't bee in a theater and have some madman come in the back door with evil black guns, shooting at any target he chooses... But I might not have been there as it was posted, anyway.
Oak I am not picking at you at all. Im just going to make a point about LEOs and Civilians as it pertains to BGs. The BGs police run into are the same BGs you will run into. They are no different. The " I am not a LEO excuse " Doesnt work for me. We have to be better, because we will be behind the curve. The BG will dictate the fight.
 
#24 ·
Nice article aside from the anti C3 spin. I think most folks who carry C3 have a strong awareness of the disadvantage they are creating for themselves and are prepared to act accordingly if they are in a situation where they won't have time to rack a slide. There are many ways to protect yourself in an SD scenario. Your sidearm isn't always the best option or even necessary...or even safe if someone already has the drop on you. Many Tueller drill videos I see end with the GG getting stabbed. Perhaps instead of reaching for your gun you find a barrier to take cover behind or run (dependent on physical condition) to create space between you and the attacker. Maybe you're best off keeping both hands in front of you to stop the attack. Who knows what your options will be.

As is common, the article reflects a one sided risk analysis. As we shouldn't assume the sort of SD scenario we'll face, we also shouldn't assume we'll always follow proper gun handling basics and that we won't have an ND. I wish stats were available to show the frequency of ND's vs SD scenarios where a handgun is fired. The choice to carry C3 means higher risk in certain SD scenarios but it totally eliminates the possibility of an ND that could hurt/kill you or someone else. Risk should be evaluated from all angles.
 
#26 ·
Dude, get to a class. You are supporting a way that most here do not adhere to.....
 
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#27 · (Edited)
Reality tends to trump dreams/imaginations. Although it's IMPOSSIBLE to prepare for the unknown, consistent training will most assuredly help your reactions in a self defense situation. Those that make the choice of carrying C3, RIP! I personally try to take advantage of anything that might give me a "leg up" on my adversaries.

Movement MUST be incorporated in all of your training, even if it's only dryfire in your living room. You most likely will NOT be assuming the "Weaver" when you are reacting to a life threatening situation.

Practice "scanning" after your imaginary neutralization of the threat. Many folks stop at the "bang bang, you're dead" point and forget that there could be accomplices attacking from different directions.

Learn to utlize/look for cover. Even in a "close" encounter (21 feet or less), you may be able to move and put something between you and your adversary. Can you utilize cover and take a snap shot and be accurate?

Do you practice "unpredictablility" in your training? Instead of lateral movement, use angular movement...Instead of firing from a crouched position, go to your knees and fire, or prone, or stomach, or back...You may not always be standing when you defend yourself.

Are you practicing SA in your dreams? If so, why did you encounter that "self defense" situation? Why didn't your SA, or your "gut feelings, or your "spidey" senses alert you and keep you safe?

It's good to develop a "plan" based on "your dream gunfight", but what do you do IF your plan falls apart? Do you have a back up plan?

Do you train using "stress" as a test to your reactions? Even in dryfire in your living room, jog in place for five minutes, drop and knock out 25 pushups, 25 situps and then grab that laser sighted weapon of yours and hold steady and dryfire on that living room lamp BG...Did the laser stay steady? If no laser, was your hand steady for the sight picture, even tho your heart rate was elevated?

Obviously, I could go on and on...The point I'm trying to make, just like the OP, is that our "Dream Gunfight" probably will never occur. There will always be variances and unknowns which will affect our surviveablility...One can only train, train, and train some more, in hope that deep inside, this training will take over, and will give us that extra edge needed to survive a self defense encounter... JMO
 
#29 ·
Reality tends to trump dreams/imaginations. Although it's IMPOSSIBLE to prepare for the unknown, consistent training will most assuredly help your reactions in a self defense situation. Those that make the choice of carrying C3, RIP! I personally try to take advantage of anything that might give me a "leg up" on my adversaries.

Movement MUST be incorporated in all of your training, even if it's only dryfire in your living room. You most likely will NOT be assuming the "Weaver" when you are reacting to a life threatening situation.

Practice "scanning" after your imaginary neutralization of the threat. Many folks stop at the "bang bang, you're dead" point and forget that there could be accomplices attacking from different directions.

Learn to utlize/look for cover. Even in a "close" encounter (21 feet or less), you may be able to move and put something between you and your adversary. Can you utilize cover and take a snap shot and be accurate?

Do you practice "unpredictablility" in your training? Instead of lateral movement, use angular movement...Instead of firing from a crouched position, go to your knees and fire, or prone, or stomach, or back...You may not always be standing when you defend yourself.

Are you practicing SA in your dreams? If so, why did you encounter that "self defense" situation? Why didn't your SA, or your "gut feelings, or your "spidey" senses alert you and keep you safe?

It's good to develop a "plan" based on "your dream gunfight", but what do you do IF your plan falls apart? Do you have a back up plan?

Do you train using "stress" as a test to your reactions? Even in dryfire in your living room, jog in place for five minutes, drop and knock out 25 pushups, 25 situps and then grab that laser sighted weapon of yours and hold steady and dryfire on that living room lamp BG...Did the laser stay steady? If no laser, was your hand steady for the sight picture, even tho your heart rate was elevated?

Obviously, I could go on and on...The point I'm trying to make, just like the OP, is that our "Dream Gunfight" probably will never occur. The well always be variances and unknowns which will affect our surviveablility...One can only train, train, and train some more, in hope that deep inside, this training will take over, and will give us that extra edge needed to survive a self defense encounter... JMO
Brother, the next beer is on me. They can be maddening, cant they....
 
#30 ·
This last weekend I did SI's TMCO class not only do you learn Trauma Medicine there is also FOF with your needing to patch yourself up. In one of my gunfights I had a shirt/gun hang-up and my gun ended up on the ground. Talk about your fight not going the way you seen it in your mind. In the time it took to dive on the gun, roll and come up shooting, if the BGs gun had not jammed (because he said bang, bang 3-4 time), I'd of taken 3-4 hits. So no matter how the actual gunfight goes never stop fighting. Had I taken those hits in actual fight I would have needed to fight through the hits and still shot the BG to the ground. (THEN I could have died) but not before. You can always be the hero in your mind!

Who you really are makes a big difference in how you will and can fight. I've had pride in my ability to handle myself, but the weekend showed me I'm starting to suck. I've had some health issues this last year (I also turned 64 today) and it showed this last week-end. So I need to re-think just what I can and can't do.
 
#37 ·
3wggl, may I suggest you learn to trust yourself (learn the gun handling skills needed to overcome the fear of a ND) and your gun (unless there is something broken or your gun will only fire then the trigger is pressed). I suggest you take a FOF class as soon as possible. I think it will show you why C3 carry sucks for those who take self defense serious.

Israeli pushed the unchambered round for a reason lots of the firearms their people were carrying were not safe with a round in them. If your gun is not safe loaded then get a new one. Carry a loaded gun and be ready to fight once it starts because you are already behind in the fight. I don't care how fast you are in getting that round in the chamber it takes time you don't have. And the BIG question is how good and fast are you at doing the chambering with only one hand because you could very well only have one hand to work the gun. The other one is busy fighting the BG off or it has taking a hit and of no use.

I'm sorry but I see your "assumptions" of the fight being way off base. But we all live our own life the way we see fit. So I hope you the best and that would be that you never have to actually find out if it works or not in real life situation.
 
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#40 ·
Yup, saw that one a long time ago. C3 can lead to your demise....no doubt about it. C1 can also lead to your demise or the demise of an innocent. I appreciate your feedback and comments but even the most experienced firearm handlers have NDs. Within the last couple days a forum member, who is also a firearms trainer, kindly made a post for us to learn from about him nearly ending his own life as a result on an ND.

The risk of ever being in an SD scenario were you need to fire your weapon is quite low. I know playing the numbers game is a bad thing but I think it's an important consideration as there is also a risk you could have an ND that hurts or kills someone...regardless of how much you live by the 4 rules. I've read far too many articles about ND's by experienced firearm handlers to assume I'll never have one. I choose to take on a bit more SD risk to further ensure the safety of those around me, and myself, from an ND.
 
#45 ·
Very good post. I've never understood carrying without a round chambered. But it's all their preference, like riding a motorcycle without a helmet. I'd rather be ready and not need it...

Not to mention, Lack of training, preconceived notions, and overall complacency are a cocktail for disaster.
 
#47 ·
The chance of you failing to get your gun into battery with a properly seated and chambered round under the real life stress of being suddenly and without warning thrust into a deadly threat situation when you are microseconds away from death is astronomical.

Absolutely no one I have ever met who advocates carrying without a round in the chamber is a certified firearms or deadly force instructor. None. You may believe in your heart you are safer carrying that way. You are not. It's not just my opinion, it's the opinion of thousands of professional instructors.

There's always those who feel they know more than the instructor. That their situation is somehow different. Yet none of them have ever gone so far as to put their money where their mouth is, and actually taken the time, endured the effort, and laid out real money to become a recognized and credentialed firearms trainer/instructor. I wonder why that is? They are merely amateurs.

Carry without a chambered round if you wish. It's your life. But don't pretend to think you're going to convince those who know better it's a valid, or somehow safer way to carry a gun. It just doesn't wash.

My theory is that those who must carry with an empty gun, deep down inside their subconscious know, or believe they are not really competent with a gun. No doubt they can make the gun work and hit a target when shooting... and often times shoot quite accurately. But they still don't believe they are competent enough to carry the gun properly. So they feel it's safer if they don't carry the gun properly. Why they feel incompetent is almost always due to a falsely believed myth... or a lack of professional training. And they will somehow espouse that they don't need that professional training.

There are not two sides to the argument. One side is simply incorrect.

I'm sorry if it hurts anyone's feelings. Life is not fair, and is not easy. Facts are facts. Everything else is B.S.

The original post is spot on. It's not biased against carrying Condition 3. Condition 3 is absolutely an inferior way to carry a defensive firearm and no professional instructor will advocate it for valid reasons.
 
#53 ·
3wggl, I started to PM you, but decided to post this comment, as I'm sure there are others lurking with your thought process on this thread.

I really don't wish to dog-pile you. That is not my intention here. However, I've seen it time and time again, where someone who is used to thinking for them self, but generally untrained and/or new to firearms, will try to convince all of us gun-slinging knuckle-draggers that there is a valid reason to carry on an empty chamber. Bark'n sums the answer beautifully here:

...
There are not two sides to the argument. One side is simply incorrect...
There are many members here, who used to carry that way and through education, training and experience have come 180 degrees to realizing how wrong we are. I am one, who had it drilled into me at an early age by the Coast Guard, that even during the most dangerous drug-interdiction boardings, we were not allowed to carry chambered. It was actually a booking offense if we were caught. The plain fact is, that it was simply a CYA move from the command, in an attempt to reduce the possibility of innocent civilian casualties inflicted by a poorly-trained maritime law enforcement unit. By the same logic, they should have just insisted that we be unarmed, just to be sure (and given the level of training of some of the boarding officers I've seen, I would have preferred that they'd been unarmed as well).

There are many others here on the board, who originally had your mindset when they joined, but through study, research and training, have recognized the error and arrogance of their thinking.

I apologize for the digression from the topic of "My Gunfight", but the path you are on will likely preclude you from ever being able to participate in the gun fight that you may be trying to prepare for.
 
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