When to say police - Page 2

When to say police

This is a discussion on When to say police within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by GeorgiaDawg Some of you haven't read In the Gravest Extreme , have you? Sorry, but a book written in 1980 by an ...

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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgiaDawg View Post
    Some of you haven't read In the Gravest Extreme, have you?
    Sorry, but a book written in 1980 by an LEO doesn't adequately address the legalities and realities being discussed here.
    The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.
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  2. #17
    Senior Member Array GeorgiaDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Sorry, but a book written in 1980 by an LEO doesn't adequately address the legalities and realities being discussed here.
    Many are stating that the advice/teaching given by the OPs instructor is ludicrous and I merely quoted the same teaching from a renowned firearms and tactics expert and instructor who has instructed police for quite some time. Many here respect this man for his knowledge and understanding and he, in one of his most well-known and read books, promotes the same tactic being taught by the OP's instructor. I thought that was pertinent to the discussion. Also, police impersonation and the laws surrounding it has been around a long time, so Ayoob would certainly be familiar with them, being a former LEO, as you rightly said.

    I'm not stating anyone should shout "Police!" in any situation, even as Ayoob does. I'm just providing additional support for the idea by someone others respect.
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

    “The purpose of the law is not to prevent a future offense, but to punish the one actually committed” - Ayn Rand

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgiaDawg View Post
    Many are stating that the advice/teaching given by the OPs instructor is ludicrous and I merely quoted the same teaching from a renowned firearms and tactics expert and instructor who has instructed police for quite some time. Many here respect this man for his knowledge and understanding and he, in one of his most well-known and read books, promotes the same tactic being taught by the OP's instructor. I thought that was pertinent to the discussion. Also, police impersonation and the laws surrounding it has been around a long time, so Ayoob would certainly be familiar with them, being a former LEO, as you rightly said.

    I'm not stating anyone should shout "Police!" in any situation, even as Ayoob does. I'm just providing additional support for the idea by someone others respect.
    One of the problems is this:
    if you're ordering a man to stop, yell "Police! Hold it!" If anyone asks you can say later that you were shouting for the police in the same breath that you ordered the suspect to halt.
    You know you are trying to make the BG think you are a LEO. Then the advice is to lie to authorities after. You can wordsmith it anyway you want but the intent is to imply you are something you are not and the author is basically telling you to lie and that you were calling for the police.

    If that is OK with you and others that is cool. But let us not think that there is a single reason for saying "police".

    Anyway, like I said before...if you have time to be engaging in a conversation with the BG with a gun why don't you just shoot? Heck, If I was a BG reading this column and somebody yelled "police" to me I would retort with "me too!!!!"
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  4. #19
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    I think part of the problem in the advised response to these scenarios, is that the OP received advice on how to respond to these scenarios from the LEO's, from their perspective. The command voice thingy is great when you're in uniform and it's your job to apprehend and follow force continuum policy.

    As a non-leo, if I am in a situation where I deem lethal force is necessary to protect myself or even another, I likely will not draw with the intention of negotiating their release of their weapon. If I'm drawing, the bad guy already has the drop on me. I don't see this as negotiation time, I see this as shooting time. I'll likely be screaming, "someone call the police", after I've shot the dirtbag to the ground, and no, I will not shout "police" under the hope that someone will assume I'm that a cop. I'm fine with exercising the right to preserve my own life as a civilian.
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  5. #20
    Senior Member Array GeorgiaDawg's Avatar
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    suntzu: I agree with you. I wouldn't yell "Police" unless I really was trying to shout for a LEO, and I certainly wouldn't lie about it afterward.

    I just wanted to give an example of a credible instructor who was advising the same thing as the OP's instructor, lest everyone assume that only unqualified idiots would say such a thing. My moral compass doesn't allow me to feel comfortable pretending to be a LEO or lying about it afterward, but not everyone feels the same way as I do.
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

    “The purpose of the law is not to prevent a future offense, but to punish the one actually committed” - Ayn Rand

  6. #21
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    The way this man acts is what I would do. I don't know what he said during the event, but at one point it looks like he tells someone to call 911. What I like is that he quickly gained control of the BG gun and then holds his very close to his body (never know when there will be more than 1 BG). Holding his gun close to him, but still at the ready will show any arriving LEO that his is not the BG. Though once LE shows up follow all their directions!

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by hi_altitude View Post


    The way this man acts is what I would do. I don't know what he said during the event, but at one point it looks like he tells someone to call 911. What I like is that he quickly gained control of the BG gun and then holds his very close to his body (never know when there will be more than 1 BG). Holding his gun close to him, but still at the ready will show any arriving LEO that his is not the BG. Though once LE shows up follow all their directions!
    That video was posted here before, but from a different angle. The guy in the tan shirt with a gun is a cop. He's clearly had training. We speculated here that it was a COM shot that hit the kid in the spine. Drops like a sack of potatoes, legs don't move, pulling open jacket in attempts to breathe. The kid is well on his way to his Maker.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHEC724 View Post
    That video was posted here before, but from a different angle. The guy in the tan shirt with a gun is a cop. He's clearly had training. We speculated here that it was a COM shot that hit the kid in the spine. Drops like a sack of potatoes, legs don't move, pulling open jacket in attempts to breathe. The kid is well on his way to his Maker.
    I missed that post. That would explain the way he acted.

  9. #24
    Distinguished Member Array Arborigine's Avatar
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    Practice yelling "CORONER, Someone call a Coroner!!!"
    WHEC724 and mlr1m like this.
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  10. #25
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    I'm not gonna' mention the word "Police". I'm gonna' shoot the threat. LEOs have an entirely different set of thresholds & responsibilities than does an armed citizen. And because I'm NOT an LEO, I don't know the fine-print of those differences. If I'm involved in a defensive shooting, I ONLY want to operate from what I...KNOW FOR SURE. IMHO, I ALWAYS want to keep the BG as confused & befuddled as I possibly can. Until he's out-of-the-fight, I'm not volunteering a single thing. I'm just a source of muzzle flash.
    WHEC724 likes this.
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  11. #26
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Some of you haven't read In the Gravest Extreme, have you?

    Originally Posted by In The Gravest Extreme, p.32
    As far as identifying yourself, don't impersonate a police officer. At the same time, if you're ordering a man to stop, yell "Police! Hold it!" If anyone asks you can say later that you were shouting for the police in the same breath that you ordered the suspect to halt. How fast is he going to stop if you cry "Hold it! Private Citizen"? The cry will also prevent your being mistaken for a fleeing felon by officers arriving on the scene.
    I don't care who said it somethings just don't go along with common sense. Trying to imply you are the Law is one of those things. With all the cameras around these days you may not be able to change how you said what cause its on video.

    If the fear for my life is there I'm not saying "Police! Hold it!" he gets shot to the ground other wise WHY did I have my gun out. No fear no gun!
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgiaDawg View Post
    Many are stating that the advice/teaching given by the OPs instructor is ludicrous and I merely quoted the same teaching from a renowned firearms and tactics expert and instructor who has instructed police for quite some time. Many here respect this man for his knowledge and understanding and he, in one of his most well-known and read books, promotes the same tactic being taught by the OP's instructor. I thought that was pertinent to the discussion. Also, police impersonation and the laws surrounding it has been around a long time, so Ayoob would certainly be familiar with them, being a former LEO, as you rightly said.

    I'm not stating anyone should shout "Police!" in any situation, even as Ayoob does. I'm just providing additional support for the idea by someone others respect.
    I have no opinion regarding Ayoob one way or the other. Again, that book was written in 1980, twenty-four years before concealed carry was even legal in my jurisdiction. Then, it was perfectly OK for a law-abiding citizen to shout "Police!!!" when drawing a gun, because the police were the only ones legally permitted to have a gun.
    The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.
    Ayn Rand

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array GeorgiaDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I have no opinion regarding Ayoob one way or the other. Again, that book was written in 1980, twenty-four years before concealed carry was even legal in my jurisdiction. Then, it was perfectly OK for a law-abiding citizen to shout "Police!!!" when drawing a gun, because the police were the only ones legally permitted to have a gun.
    Wow.. perhaps I have stepped in it by trying to offer fodder to one side of the argument, but I think you're missing the point here. Regardless of when the book was written, the situation being discussed is exactly the same as what was being described in the book. It was just as illegal for a civilian to impersonate a LEO then as it is now, regardless of whether or not your city or state allowed you to carry a gun concealed.
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

    “The purpose of the law is not to prevent a future offense, but to punish the one actually committed” - Ayn Rand

  14. #29
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    Anything that can be construed as verbal identification by a non-LEO will certainly be taken as impersonating an officer and all it would take is one bystander saying "he said he was a cop" to bring that charge down on you.
    As others have said here, if there's an active threat to life or well-being that is sufficient for me to draw my weapon, there will be no warnings.
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  15. #30
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    Although it is interesting to see how some can use plays on words, I don't think I would be taking that advice. Seems a bit too sketchy all the way around for me.
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