Position SUL: like/dislike, useful/fad?

Position SUL: like/dislike, useful/fad?

This is a discussion on Position SUL: like/dislike, useful/fad? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In light of coming to the realization my hopes of educating (NOT changing the mind of, but making aware of) an Aspiring Instructor in the ...

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Thread: Position SUL: like/dislike, useful/fad?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    Position SUL: like/dislike, useful/fad?

    In light of coming to the realization my hopes of educating (NOT changing the mind of, but making aware of) an Aspiring Instructor in the proper context of Sul is a moot point, I'm gonna open up a new thread.

    How do you guys here view Sul?
    Let's hammer out the good and bad, pros and cons. EVERYBODY'S opinion is just as valid, or , invalid as the next guy's.

    Only caveat, Doodle gets to post his opinion first, since I sorta shut him down in the earlier thread, and now I'm gonna make it up to him.

    Doodle, you're up, hit me!

    dan


  2. #2
    Ex Member Array Doodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdsumner View Post
    Doodle, you're up, hit me!
    dan
    Heheheheh

    Ok so I never tried it until a few minutes ago and I thought the whole thumbs together pose was a little kung fu... After trying it, I get it the thumbs together makes hands coming together a simple pivot that is quick and my grip was perfect after every one of those snap pivots.. So it has merit. Something ill try next time at the range. I'm hoping early next year I can get into a pistol class... I'm thinking I really need it more and more.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    Bro,
    I've matured to the degree I no longer feel the need to convince others that what I'm doing is "right" or that they need to do as I do. That's really what I meant in opening this thread. I know some folks de-phreekin-spise Sul. But, I want to give them equal air time.

    Tho, I am rather pleased you MAY have found some merit in it. If you get a chance, try moving around while in Sul. You may find that you can move in an occupied area w/out muzzling or sweeping yourself or the other occupants. Good luck, better training!

    dan

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    Ex Member Array Doodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdsumner View Post
    Bro,
    I've matured to the degree I no longer feel the need to convince others that what I'm doing is "right" or that they need to do as I do. That's really what I meant in opening this thread. I know some folks de-phreekin-spise Sul. But, I want to give them equal air time.

    Tho, I am rather pleased you MAY have found some merit in it. If you get a chance, try moving around while in Sul. You may find that you can move in an occupied area w/out muzzling or sweeping yourself or the other occupants. Good luck, better training!

    dan
    Are we misunderstanding one another? ... I was agreeing after trying it (context is slightly confused but in nice tone of voice so we are clear)

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    JD. Sul has been around for years and is taught by a couple of the "big name" instructors. SI, Sabre Tactical (Now closed, Paul Castle passed away), Kelly McCann (The Crucible).

    I have and continue to use the position and teach it. Many of the SF guys here use it for the reasons stated. The muzzle has to go somewhere down is as safe as any and with a simple rotation and extension the weapon can be back on target.

    Many times an instructor wants to have something all his own and "corrects" students when they use something different. Muzzle up, muzzle down, toward the target, are all taught by someone, somewhere. It bothers me when one instructor has the "my way is the only way" mentality. No one technique works for every person.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    Member Array N.M. Edmands's Avatar
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    Dan, I am very much in the "like " and use camp. D.R. Middlebrooks [DRM on DC] used and promoted a variation of "Sul" in his training classes and books as far back as the late 90s that I found had merit. Perhaps he will chime in, I believe a Max [something, last name escapes me] is credited with the naming this technique with the Portuguese term for south .
    Oh yeh? Well this was sent from the scary black electrical box under my desk, so there!
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    I learned Sul back in the 90s (but called it something different) and have used it since then. It isn't anything new. Heck I know it was discussed by Gabe Suarez on this very forum back in 2004.

    Anyway, here's a pretty solid article with some quotes from the dudes that many believe invented Sul (but I highly doubt anyone could ever figure out who used it first. I'm pretty sure the guy that taught it to us came up with it on his own).
    tacman605 likes this.
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    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    No, Doodle, we're not. My ability to convey my thoughts in written text is terrible. I tend combine thought trains, and usually wind up w a wreck. My response was meant only that I was truly glad you may find Sul to be a tool in your toolbox, and was more impressed that unlike some who dismiss it early, you gave it a try. The statement about not feeling the need to change another's mind, was more me still stuck on having dealt the AI and his refusal to even acknowledge the position and its history, and with that, my decision to end our (AI's and my) interactions.

    I apologize to you for not moving completely out of my old thread and harboring shadows of thoughts and statements that I should have let die with the termination of the other thread. You, in a short period of time, a matter of minutes in fact, covered more ground in with Sul, than three days of exchanges w the AI. Even if you hated it, you still tried it. As it stands, you now have a piece of knowledge and a tool that you may possibly find useful, and I'm certain you're the type who will pressure test it to see that it works for you. Your credibility w me is heads and shoulders above this AI I've dealt with. I never asked him to teach it, just to see that it does exist, and for some, may be useful. He still mantains 'no one' uses it, and its just a cool looking fad. To me, that shows someone who's at least 10-15 yrs stuck in the past. Its tough for me to accept much of what he says now as pertinent. Even tho he may have some useful things to pass along, trainers that have a "always/never" "I train this way so its the only way/All others are phonies" will be hard pressed to ever see my money. I'd train alongside YOU, because someone willing to attempt something new, even if they view it w a skewed glance at first, will also TEACH me something in return.

    Apologies again,

    dan

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    E4,
    .............uhm, I uh, can't seem to locate that "solid article". :)
    Still love to have it. Try again?

    dan

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    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    It's something to learn, a technique to master so that you can call upon it in an automatic and reflexive manner, when it is appropriate to use it.

    High port, low port, high ready, low ready...there's many good reasons for many of these techniques, but it all depends on execution. There is a place and a time.

    Jason Falla wrote the following about the tactical reload, on M4C.net, a while ago, and I think it can be extrapolated to fit the execution of any technique:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Falla on M4C
    Tactical reloads should be performed when the time and opportunity presents itself. There are many gamers in this industry that have little insight into real combat and rely mostly on speculation when it comes to teaching certain weapons manipulations.

    Times when tactical reloads should be performed:

    Tactical reloads should be performed from cover where appropriate, potentially prior to covering the move of an individual or maneuver group across an obstacle during urban combat.

    Tactical Reloads should be performed at the Re-Org phase of an assault, together with ammo redistribution, assessment of casualties and comms.

    Prior to conducting a back clearance of a stronghold during offensive room combat operations, or if time permits prior to exiting rooms in a team environment.

    Tactical reloads should not be performed while engaged in hostilities with enemy combatants. When receiving effective fire, ground forces will need to regain the initiative by providing large volumes of effective fire into likely enemy positions. Magazines will run dry and combat reloads are the order of the day.

    The skill of being able to perform at tactical reload is one worth learning, but timing is key during the execution.

    There is a huge difference between combat and competition!

    Time for reality checks!
    The emphasis is his. The post is taken verbatim.

    Yes, I know, Hick's Law. (In)Decision Paralysis is something that, I think, every one of us is conscious of. It's why we try to pare down our life-saving manual to that one-page, double-spaced, 14-font format. But at the same time, I also believe strongly that having breadth-of-knowledge is just as important as possessing depth-of-knowledge.

    I think what's key is to understand the "why" of the SUL, and, in doing so, being able to properly execute it as the situation demands.
    Bark'n likes this.

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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by N.M. Edmands View Post
    Dan, I am very much in the "like " and use camp. D.R. Middlebrooks [DRM on DC] used and promoted a variation of "Sul" in his training classes and books as far back as the late 90s that I found had merit. Perhaps he will chime in, I believe a Max [something, last name escapes me] is credited with the naming this technique with the Portuguese term for south .
    Credit where credit is due:

    Max Joseph of TEES is credited with “SUL” which is Portuguese for “SOUTH”. Apparently, Max and Alan Brosnan went on ops with the Brazilian police and the Brazilians were using it.

    It was originally intended for entry teams “stacking” at a door to go in. At first, I dismissed it for solo use, but then found myself going into it during house clearing exercises WITHOUT EVEN THINKING ABOUT IT.

    So, I decided it did have a practical place in the civilian tool box. Here is our version of it thumb pads touching (Photo courtesy FIST-FIRE Book Copyright 2002):
    SUL.jpg
    Last edited by DRM; November 1st, 2012 at 01:09 PM. Reason: CORRECTION
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    VIP Member Array BigJon10125's Avatar
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    Google here I come...

    Well lookey here! Google loves us everybody!

    Position SUL

    I had no idea what it was. I am in the process of looking for training in my area so this is all Greek to me!
    Last edited by BigJon10125; November 1st, 2012 at 11:58 AM. Reason: Awesomeness!!!
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  13. #13
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    Exclamation Problem with SUL

    In “Position SUL” the gun is pointed towards the ground and centered in the middle of the torso. The strong hand wrist is hyper extended downwards while the off hand is held underneath, flat up against the chest.

    The problem here is that the gun is very susceptible to a “disarm” or weapons takeaway attempt by a bad guy when held in this position. The off hand can easily become “trapped” underneath the gun in a struggle, and if the arm is trapped, the off hand cannot block or strike an opponent (Photo courtesy FIST-FIRE Book 2002):
    SUL 2.jpg
    marcclarke and Bark'n like this.
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    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    I learned this back in the late '70s as a "close retention" position. (We also used it hunting and traversing in very thick brush.) So, I don't know how knew the concept is. But, it is my favorite ready position of them all and what I encourage others to adapt as well.

    It looks like there is a good thread on the concept over at "The Firing Line".

    Here's a short excerpt from that thread; for those unsure about SUL.

    By: Tom Perroni


    According to Max Joseph & Alan Brosnan the inventors of Position “SUL” it is the one “ready position” that ensures team safety & handgun retention, even in CQB! The name Sul is taken from the Portuguese language. It simply means “south” since that’s where the muzzle is directed in this position.

    Mr. Alan Brosnan describes this position this way: Position SUL, is not a classic "gun ready" position, but rather a "gun safety" position. It was primarily designed for the Brazilian officers as they poured Out of their SUVs on missions in the slums. Their muzzle control was atrocious, and since Max and I were in the SUVs, it did not take much brain power for us to create a solution to this evident problem -- be it right or wrong for many of the US instructors and critics. I think most of them thought it was a substitute for a classic "gun-ready" position and that is where the confusion came in. The position has taken off among the law enforcement and military training community. After they understand the concept, it's hard for them to disagree with it, especially since it affects safety - predominately their own!
    -
    DRM likes this.

  15. #15
    Member Array rick21's Avatar
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    Gabe Suarez addresses the problems of trapping and disarming when using Sul in both his classes and DVD "Advanced Close Range Gunfighting". There are counters for counters for counters in any CQB skill set. The problem comes when we only learn part of it.
    DRM likes this.

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