Defensive Carry banner

Sentry position

5K views 39 replies 16 participants last post by  N.M. Edmands 
#1 ·
Here's the problem:

This is a video clip filmed in a major city of a felony stop. I watched in horror as a female officer discharged her weapon while her partner was attempting to handcuff a suspect he had on the ground. The bullet struck the ground only inches away from the head of the suspect and the ricochet hit her partner. I knew that if the bullet had struck the suspect in the head would have been deemed an assassination by the press. Can you imagine the media impact??



While this accident was due in part to the high stress of the situation, the main reason for the A.D. was a lack of proper training, specifically, a lack of MUZZLE AWARENESS and a severe lack of TRIGGER FINGER AWARENSS.

When I was working in Law Enforcement, I always felt very uncomfortable hand cuffing a suspect I had on the ground while my partner was covering me, mainly because he was pointing his weapon at my head or hands most of the time.

To combat this problem, the “Sentry Position” was created. This unique method of holding the weapon was specifically developed for safety by allowing the officer to have both TRIGGER FINGER AWARENESS as well as MUZZLE AWARENESS. Weapons retention and fast deployment of the firearm was also incorporated into the design (Photos courtesy FIST-FIRE Book © 2002):

Land vehicle Vehicle Car Motor vehicle Vehicle door


By having the pistol covered with the off hand the gun is held securely by the strong hand while the trigger finger remains “trapped” on the side of the dust cover. Both thumb pads are touching and the off hand is clasped around the forward half of the slide. Again, this affords the officer both muzzle and trigger finger awareness.
 
See less See more
1 1
#2 ·
Weapons Retention

In the event of a personal attack, the gun is well protected and allows the off hand to be used for blocking, striking or stiff-arming an opponent in order to make distance between you and the threat. Further, the weapon can be brought into play quickly and safely without sacrificing security. By keeping thumb pads touching, the gun can be rotated smoothly while keeping the fingers away from the muzzle (Photos courtesy FIST-FIRE Book © 2002):

T-shirt Headgear Cap


Arm T-shirt Joint Cap Headgear


Arm Joint Krav maga Muscle Systema
 
#3 · (Edited)
If you are standing guard on a dangerous suspect or simply holding him at gunpoint for any length of time it can be a tiresome and challenging job. In only a mater of minutes your shoulder caps will begin to burn with the gun extended (at least that's what I experienced :redface:).

Further, by holding the weapon pointed out towards the suspect you open yourself up to a disarm, especially if you turn your head to scan and see what’s going on around you. But I find most people can stand in the Sentry position for a long, long time without fatigue. :yup:

From an Executive Protection standpoint, having your gun drawn while moving through a crowd can also be a real ‘eye opener’. :blink: You don't want to be waving your gun around as you try to move people out of the way or to get to your client. Waving the gun around makes you venerable a disarm and will also alarm the people area, who you are trying to keep calm.

You can move through a crowd quickly and protect the gun at the same time. You can also safely use your elbows to move people out of the way or even strike someone if need be. :image035:
 
#4 ·
Looks interesting. For these type situations I use the Center Axis Relock developed by Paul Castle 30 years ago. The weapon can be held comfortably for long periods and can be fired from the same position if needed. Weapons retention is simple as the forward arm is already in position to guard the weapon simply by rotating the body and deflecting the gun grab.

Now the Sentry position would be "safer" for the lack of a better word as the CAR system still relies on proper finger awareness.

Geology Recreation Wildlife biologist Cap Jacket
 
#5 ·
^^^^^^They both look to be^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

very good ways of keeping the firearm instantly ready, but manipulated in a safe manner,, with the former being perhaps better for everyone, police and average Joe Blow alike,
 
#6 ·
Very interesting, thank you.
 
#8 ·
Relative to the "non-threatening" aspect of the "sentry", I find that with my carry gun [P7 in my avatar] and my big mitts, very little of the firearm is exposed and near invisible to some observers. I had finished a strenuous course of fire ,done a mean faced scan[ya I'm a wannabe], and gone to "sentry" to get my breathing under control. The RO moved up on my right and said " If the shooter is done"---[looks at my hands,down at the ground] "Hey where's your--"[back towards my chest] "OH- unload and show clear.":embarassed:
 
#9 ·
Excellent discussion DRM. I have seen both the discussed "sentry position" and the "CAR" in practice.

I have seen the "CAR" type hold used more in close quarters search tactics than on cover, particularly in a "cut the pie" corner maneuver in a home, for example.

For the "sentry position" in executive security application moving through a crowd. Usually the gun would not be drawn until a threat is verified, at that point the crowd would likely already be alarmed by the recognition of the same threat you see or by the actions taken by the security team, correct?

In normal movement, wouldn't firearm be holstered and both hands be used to move the crowd?

Trying to learn when one would use the "sentry position" in executive security. Maybe for the perimeter team not assigned to directly evacuate the VIP?
 
#13 ·
For the "sentry position" in executive security application moving through a crowd. Usually the gun would not be drawn until a threat is verified, at that point the crowd would likely already be alarmed by the recognition of the same threat you see or by the actions taken by the security team, correct?

In normal movement, wouldn't firearm be holstered and both hands be used to move the crowd?

Trying to learn when one would use the "sentry position" in executive security. Maybe for the perimeter team not assigned to directly evacuate the VIP?
If the crowd surges your direction suddenly after you have drawn, it could be problematic at best to try and holster the weapon. Or if you have to bull through the crowd to get to a position to engage a threat after you have drawn the weapon. In this case, Sentry allows you to tuck in and protect the weapon during that movement or while you're stabilizing yourself against the crowd surge.
 
#12 ·
In normal movement, wouldn't firearm be holstered and both hands be used to move the crowd?

Trying to learn when one would use the "sentry position" in executive security. Maybe for the perimeter team not assigned to directly evacuate the VIP?

"What's the No. 1 Rule in a gunfight? Gun must be in hand before fight begins." - B.C. Walsh


So, it's designed for use preemptively whenever possible. Then when shots are fired, say as in the Aurora Colorado cinema shooting, you don't want someone in the crowd shooting at you, you wouldn't want more people flipping out and mainly you don't want the Bad Guy seeing your gun while you maneuver around to gain advantage.
 
#20 ·
Semantics. AD vs. ND = not a whole hell of a lot of difference. We all know it wasn't good.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DRM
#16 ·
Ok, so it is after a threat has been verified, such as shots have been fired or confirmation of a person who has a weapon.

It was late and I got stuck on thinking "executive security" and was picturing moving a VIP through a crowd when no threat has been presented, other than maybe a heavy crowd surge. Makes sense to be drawn and close to body once a threat is verified.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DRM
#22 ·
AD? ND? it matters not to those endangered by it. Let's call it UD, "Unintended Discharge."
Even the best trained,coldest human being can be effected by unexpected outside influences. When your adrenalin is up and your pucker valve is trying to nurse on your tonsils' anyone can be affected by forces beyond their control or expectation. "Sympathetic Response".
Frightened dog running between your legs, Team member watching your "6" or first responder stumbling into you and knocking you off balance, Sonic Boom or earthquake. It just doesn't matter where your finger was before contact was made,the end result is still bad.
I take issue with this:

"I'm sure it will work for some (who need training), and others it isn't worhtwhile trying to re-wire your skill set"

It will work for anyone and while it takes very little to "re-wire your skill set", isn't it worthwhile to add one more level of insurance with little to no effect on your ability to respond to action if needed? One more tool in the box.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bark'n
#25 ·
Sorry if I came across that way-imperfect medium this. Also sorry I mistook your post as dismissive of a usefull[to some] concept.:confused:
 
#30 ·
I am sure the officer in question knows the 4 safety rules and said rules were probably hammered home in training...however minimal training. Your assumption is that a poorly trained officer will use this technique properly with finger off the trigger...something he/she could not do with the same amount of training prior to this technique. With lack of training, the officer in question could easily execute this technique with her finger on the trigger.

Here's the problem:

This is a video clip filmed in a major city of a felony stop. I watched in horror as a female officer discharged her weapon while her partner was attempting to handcuff a suspect he had on the ground. The bullet struck the ground only inches away from the head of the suspect and the ricochet hit her partner. I knew that if the bullet had struck the suspect in the head would have been deemed an assassination by the press. Can you imagine the media impact??



While this accident was due in part to the high stress of the situation, the main reason for the A.D. was a lack of proper training, specifically, a lack of MUZZLE AWARENESS and a severe lack of TRIGGER FINGER AWARENSS.

When I was working in Law Enforcement, I always felt very uncomfortable hand cuffing a suspect I had on the ground while my partner was covering me, mainly because he was pointing his weapon at my head or hands most of the time.

To combat this problem, the “Sentry Position” was created. This unique method of holding the weapon was specifically developed for safety by allowing the officer to have both TRIGGER FINGER AWARENESS as well as MUZZLE AWARENESS. Weapons retention and fast deployment of the firearm was also incorporated into the design (Photos courtesy FIST-FIRE Book © 2002):

View attachment 64043

By having the pistol covered with the off hand the gun is held securely by the strong hand while the trigger finger remains “trapped” on the side of the dust cover. Both thumb pads are touching and the off hand is clasped around the forward half of the slide. Again, this affords the officer both muzzle and trigger finger awareness.
 
#31 ·
I am sure the officer in question knows the 4 safety rules and said rules were probably hammered home in training...
And we can all see how effective her technique (or lack thereof) really was... :frown:

You can tell people to keep their finger off the trigger until your blue in the face. But telling them is just not enough. They need to be trained in proper gun handling techniques.

We have been teaching Sentry for a dozen years now with no reported A.D./N.D./Unintended Discharges whatsoever. It’s a proven technique that’s easy to teach, easy to learn and easy to execute.

It’s a simple fix and a preventative solution to an identified problem. :yup:
 
#32 ·
You can tell people to keep their finger off the trigger until your blue in the face. But telling them is just not enough. They need to be trained in proper gun handling techniques.

How about when they sign on/get hired, "if you ever have an ND, you are no longer part of this organization...no ifs ands or buts...sign here that you understand that".


A very strong incentive.


:smile:
 
#35 ·
OK... Why was the female officer pointing her gun at a already subdued subject? What ever would have justified her shooting him?... So why was her gun even in her hand? I noticed there was a plain clothed officer also with gun in hand but he seemed to have assumed an overwatch position keeping an eye on the crowd, and for other subjects.
 
#36 ·
Don't know if it really matters any...but that video is from about the early 1990's. I worked for that department back in 2001 and it was being shown in the police academy then (probably still being shown today), their training has changed since then. From what I remember the female Officer didn't get fired...
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top