On Killing (or not killing)

This is a discussion on On Killing (or not killing) within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Pythius if you can protect yourself or others without killing, you should do so. but if you have no other option....then kill. ...

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Thread: On Killing (or not killing)

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythius View Post
    if you can protect yourself or others without killing, you should do so.

    but if you have no other option....then kill.
    I almost agree with that, except I would say if you have no other option, then shoot. If I am faced with a deadly encounter, I will shoot to save my life, no doubt about that, but since the end result of whether my attacker dies or not is out of my hands, I don't concentrate on any result other than ending the threat. Period. Some may see this as only a difference in semantics. I see it as a difference in mindset. I understand that since it is a difference in mindset, many people will not recognize it, since they cannot read my mind. That's fine. Even if I am the only one who may see that difference, I know there is one.

    It is obvious that the same ideas are being put forward, just in slightly different ways, and no minds are being changed by this discussion, so, although it has been fun, I believe this will be my last post on the matter.

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  3. #47
    Member Array nathanjns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokinFool View Post
    It is obvious that the same ideas are being put forward, just in slightly different ways, and no minds are being changed by this discussion, so, although it has been fun, I believe this will be my last post on the matter.


    Yeah, me too. This was the first time I have participated in one of these forum discussions. It was a lot of fun and very interesting. I even came away with a couple of things to think over. Thanks everyone.

  4. #48
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Here is a very good post on the OP from another forum by CR Williams

    It is a mistake to produce the weapon without a clear intent to fire.

    It is a mistake to not change your decision and withhold your shot(s) if the attacker's behavior changes as a result of the weapon being drawn.

    This is not an either/or. You should be fully intent on firing when you draw because the line has been crossed that you have previously set for what requires a lethal-force response. But you are in control, and if the attacker goes back across, to the other side of that line, when the weapon is produced, you should be able to change your decision and not make the shot. If you cannot stop yourself from shooting when the weapon is drawn, change your training or re-consider the idea of carrying a lethal weapon for defense.

    In the discussion on WT about this article, Michael notes that in the second case he writes of, he had a shoot/no-shoot decision line in mind. You should too.

    I discuss this in the book I wrote and will be discussing it in the video support series on my website.

    Intent to shoot on presentation does not, should not, equate to automatically shooting on presentation.
    tcox4freedom likes this.
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  5. #49
    Member Array nathanjns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    Here is a very good post on the OP from another forum by CR Williams
    It is a mistake to produce the weapon without a clear intent to fire.

    It is a mistake to not change your decision and withhold your shot(s) if the attacker's behavior changes as a result of the weapon being drawn.

    This is not an either/or. You should be fully intent on firing when you draw because the line has been crossed that you have previously set for what requires a lethal-force response. But you are in control, and if the attacker goes back across, to the other side of that line, when the weapon is produced, you should be able to change your decision and not make the shot. If you cannot stop yourself from shooting when the weapon is drawn, change your training or re-consider the idea of carrying a lethal weapon for defense.


    100% agreement. I think this person has it exactly right!
    tcox4freedom likes this.

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array SmokinFool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nathanjns View Post
    It is a mistake to produce the weapon without a clear intent to fire.

    It is a mistake to not change your decision and withhold your shot(s) if the attacker's behavior changes as a result of the weapon being drawn.

    This is not an either/or. You should be fully intent on firing when you draw because the line has been crossed that you have previously set for what requires a lethal-force response. But you are in control, and if the attacker goes back across, to the other side of that line, when the weapon is produced, you should be able to change your decision and not make the shot. If you cannot stop yourself from shooting when the weapon is drawn, change your training or re-consider the idea of carrying a lethal weapon for defense.


    100% agreement. I think this person has it exactly right!
    Yep. I agree. This sums it up nicely.

  7. #51
    Senior Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
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    Thanks, guys. It's what I believe to be the way of it.

    I am occasionally troubled by hints I see from some gun-carriers that they really believe they're toting some kind of Super-Taser and not a lethal weapon. I worry that not understanding in the core that death at their hands could be the result of employing that weapon, they will lose either the fight itself, through hesitation at the wrong instant, or the process following the fight, when they're over-wrought to the point where they say or do the wrong thing and turn from a victim to a potential suspect in the eyes of the investigators.

    I don't ask you or them to become easy and comfortable with the thought that you might kill an attacker some day. I do ask you and them to begin now to reach an accommodation, as best you can, with the vision of one or more criminals laying in front of you dead by your hand. If you don't take some steps to deal with it now, before the fight, you risk a loss of control afterwards that will not do you or the family that's depending on you to survive the entire process of self-defense, not just the part where you have to shoot someone, any good.
    tcox4freedom and Bill MO like this.
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  8. #52
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokinFool View Post
    I almost agree with that, except I would say if you have no other option, then shoot. If I am faced with a deadly encounter, I will shoot to save my life, no doubt about that, but since the end result of whether my attacker dies or not is out of my hands, I don't concentrate on any result other than ending the threat. Period. Some may see this as only a difference in semantics. I see it as a difference in mindset. I understand that since it is a difference in mindset, many people will not recognize it, since they cannot read my mind. That's fine. Even if I am the only one who may see that difference, I know there is one.

    It is obvious that the same ideas are being put forward, just in slightly different ways, and no minds are being changed by this discussion, so, although it has been fun, I believe this will be my last post on the matter.
    I would like add to the statement about a criminals death in a SD situation being out of my hands. IMHO; If a BG has pushed you to the point where "deadly force" is the only option to save your life, his death will be COMPLETELY on his own hands.

    -

  9. #53
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    Have trained with Gabe and some of his instructors a few times. Gabes about 45 miles from where I live. I rate them as number one You won't find a LESS PC group anyplace that is why they are number one Outside of the fact they put places like Gunsite to shame
    Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.
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