Do we really know what happened in the gunfight that just happened

Do we really know what happened in the gunfight that just happened

This is a discussion on Do we really know what happened in the gunfight that just happened within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; These words from Grossman make me wonder, " DO WE REALLY KNOW what happened in our own gunfight after it happened"? Or anything that happens ...

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Thread: Do we really know what happened in the gunfight that just happened

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Do we really know what happened in the gunfight that just happened

    These words from Grossman make me wonder, "DO WE REALLY KNOW what happened in our own gunfight after it happened"? Or anything that happens in front of us. Do we remember what happened or what we see in our minds eye?

    My only experience I can remember is while driving and losing control on curve and doing a full 360. I remember driving through the slide, the whole time of the happening. It seemed to take a very long time to happen, but from the distance traveled in the skid and circle it could not have. So did my driving skills kick in and I controlled the jeep as I remember or did it just happen?


    Sheepdog tip of the day
    Two police officers are in a gunfight, blazing away at the suspect. One said later that he saw his partner get shot. “I see the bullets rip through my partner’s body,” he said. “I see the blood gush out. I drop [kill] the suspect, holster my weapon, and turn to my partner. But he’s fine; he’s not hit.” The officer clearly saw his partner shot. He saw the bullet holes and he saw the blood. When the battle is over, he goes to his partner’s aid, but discovers he is not hurt at all. The officer believes what he saw with such intensity that he begins pulling at his partner’s clothes... which understandably distresses the unharmed man. When under great stress you may envision your worst fear—“My God, my partner is hit!”—and you see it so clearly in your mind that you are absolutely convinced it really happened. Lt. Col. Dave Grossman,
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  2. #2
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    Trauma can play all kinds of tricks on your preception of events. Things slow down, speed up, instenctive actions are 'forgotten' or not 'registered' at the time or immideatly after.

    Preparation for a traumatic experience (training) is an important part in being able to handle such an event.

    My experience (WRT a SD situation)......Many, many moons ago a known, violent individulal was attempting to force his way into my (then) girlfriends house as I drove up her driveway. I remember everything, every thought, action, movement, every spoken word..... except I cannot tell you how my sidearm got into my hand. It just 'appeared' there. I have no memory of unholstering and drawing it. Simple enough of a 'practiced' movement or muscle memory, whatever..... but I don't have a clue as to exactly when I pulled it. (the BG ran off at the presentation of my sidearm). The couple of spinouts I've had while driving are very similar to yours...... I can recall almost exactly everything that I did..... before, during, and after, but it s-l-o-w-e-d WAY down as it was happening.

    This is one of the very reasons we are advised to keep our mouthes SHUT if we're ever involved in a SD shooting. Good advice and it makes perfect sense.
    Last edited by goldshellback; November 25th, 2012 at 12:45 PM.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

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    Distinguished Member Array lchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldshellback View Post
    This is one of the very reasons we are advised to keep our mouthes SHUT if were ever involved in a SD shooting. Good advise and it makes perfect sense.
    I think that's the hardest part of any traumatic situation.
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    Member Array nathanjns's Avatar
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    The slow motion thing is really weird isn't it. When it has happened to me, it was kind of like a voice inside my head telling me what to do and me following those instructions. Afterwards when you think about what happened, and the actual short amount of time involved, you are amazed that you got through it. Human beings are a strange lot!

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    Senior Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldshellback View Post
    This is one of the very reasons we are advised to keep our mouthes SHUT if we're ever involved in a SD shooting. Good advice and it makes perfect sense.
    It makes perfect sense only to people who haven't studied the process of surviving the aftermath of a gunfight. Those that have done so, such as Massad Ayoob and Gabe Suarez, advise you to make a limited statement that can be practiced ahead of time just like you do shooting. The model I use comes from Ayoob and goes roughly like this, with explanation of why:

    "Officer, that (man, woman, group) attacked me. I want them arrested. I will sign a complaint." (Ayoob, IIRC, says to say this even if it's obvious the attacker is dead.) - Do everything to establish yourself as the victim.
    "There is the evidence. There are the witnesses." - You will NOT get a CSI team sweeping the area. You want to make sure no evidence is lost. Witnesses will not volunteer themselves. You need to get them on record.
    "I will cooperate with the investigation/investigators after I have consulted with an attorney." - You are asserting your right to counsel and shutting up now.
    I believe I will be adding this as well:
    "Please get me to an ER. I'm not feeling well and need to be checked for injury." (Something like that. Request for medical transport of some kind.) - I may not notice an injury and I will be under stress. This also helps to keep questioning away. Do expect an escort to the ER, and do expect them to be in earshot of conversations with the doctors and nurses.

    No, it won't be easy to keep this in mind. But if it's practiced as recommended, it should make it easier to get through the process of making sure you're cleared after the shooting.

    Going completely silent is likely to raise suspicions in the investigator's minds. Going completely silent is what criminals do. And if you don't say something, survivors of your defensive shooting and their supporters will be. Be sure of that. Get the word in, get the right word in, and then get to where you can get the legal help. This is the way to maximize your chances.
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    Senior Member Array Gaius's Avatar
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    "Going completely silent is likely to raise suspicions in the investigator's minds. Going completely silent is what criminals do. And if you don't say something, survivors of your defensive shooting and their supporters will be. Be sure of that. Get the word in, get the right word in, and then get to where you can get the legal help. This is the way to maximize your chances."

    I absolutely agree with this last comment from the post. Remember the cop showing up does not know you are the good guy. The direction of the investigation, and where you sleep that night, will very much depend on what you do and say immediately after the shoot. If you say absolutely nothing except to "lawyer up" expect to spend the night, and perhaps several more, as a guest of the state.
    3wggl likes this.
    Best way to win a gun fight? "That's easy, don't show up."
    --Wyatt Earp

    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything."
    -- Wyatt Earp

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