One of the WHY'S of FOF (for me anyway)

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Thread: One of the WHY'S of FOF (for me anyway)

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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    One of the WHY'S of FOF (for me anyway)

    Here is a statement from Grossman that mentions one of the big reason I see FOF so important for anyone who carries a gun. The best way for most of us to get success in gunfights is with airsoft.

    FOF is not a game if you go into it with the right mindset, it's a true gunfight with pain when you get hit if done right. Better to learn with BBs than real ammo.



    Prior success under stressful conditions acclimatizes you to similar situations and promotes future success. Lt. Col. Dave Grossman,
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    mkh
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    FOF is a valuable training aid but one problem I've seen is that people tend to get target fixation. When there are multiple assailants people start shooting at one and tend to,ignore the others. I think it is because when hit with the bbs the assailant doesn't go down (and it is hard to know if they have been hit or not) like they do in real life. There is no visual or reaction que to move to the next target.

    Still, if done right it can be a great training tool.

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    IMO, FoF is about as close as you can get to the real thing, and then ONLY if you make the them pay. Let me explain:

    When I first did FoF with SIMS I noticed the guys who were wearing layers of sweats, gloves and face shields. And they were always smiling, having fun, taking chances and not worrying about getting hit. There was absolutely NO FEAR present because they werenít feeling any pain when they got hit. They were just playing around.

    I find the same holds true for jacked up Air Soft guns. But when I make them wear T-Shirts, gym shorts and goggles, things are quite different.

    Once they start getting raspberries and start bleeding from the hits the smiles come right off their faces. They use cover well, take instruction better and THINK harder.

    Thatís been my experience anyway. Just canít find many guys who want to play that way.
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    AOK
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkh View Post
    FOF is a valuable training aid but one problem I've seen is that people tend to get target fixation. When there are multiple assailants people start shooting at one and tend to,ignore the others. I think it is because when hit with the bbs the assailant doesn't go down (and it is hard to know if they have been hit or not) like they do in real life. There is no visual or reaction que to move to the next target.
    I think that is something that a good instructor would address. Heck, I've been to a FOF class where there was nowhere near the instruction needed and a lot of students were trying to pull their weapons out prematurely. Some even pulled out their firearms while the unknown contact didn't even pose a threat (ie. no weapon, minding their own business walking by while using an ATM).

    It still always comes back to quality instruction IMHO (and an open minded student). FOF is fantastic but if you don't have a good instructor someone could be walking away with a false sense of security just like a square range type defensive firearm class.

    As for multiple assailants, who is to say your first assailant goes down? There is no guarantee he is going to go down after a few shots but you still need to be cognizant of the fact there are additional attackers and fight/move accordingly.
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    AOK
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRM View Post
    IMO, FoF is about as close as you can get to the real thing, and then ONLY if you make the them pay. Let me explain:

    Once they start getting raspberries and start bleeding from the hits the smiles come right off their faces. They use cover well, take instruction better and THINK harder.

    Thatís been my experience anyway. Just canít find many guys who want to play that way.
    NOW THAT SOUNDS LIKE FUN!!!!

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    Just my thoughts on FOF. If the people training are serious a hit is a hit and it doesn't matter whether or not there is pain. If people aren't serious the pain will only matter for that day and then be forgotten. Outside of a class I will only practice FOF with a select few people, if they aren't serious they will not be asked back. In reality, very few people even want to do FOF. I guess since you don't get your ego stroked or get a trophy, why do it.

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    AOK
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick21 View Post
    Just my thoughts on FOF. If the people training are serious a hit is a hit and it doesn't matter whether or not there is pain. If people aren't serious the pain will only matter for that day and then be forgotten.
    In some cases that may be true. I think what DRM is pointing out is sometimes it takes negative reinforcement before some people learn.

    As for your point, while the pain may be forgotten it is up to the student to learn from their mistakes, apply ttp's taught by the instructor and adjust the way they train.

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    Re: One of the WHY'S of FOF (for me anyway)

    Quote Originally Posted by DRM View Post
    IMO, FoF is about as close as you can get to the real thing, and then ONLY if you make the them pay. Let me explain:

    When I first did FoF with SIMS I noticed the guys who were wearing layers of sweats, gloves and face shields. And they were always smiling, having fun, taking chances and not worrying about getting hit. There was absolutely NO FEAR present because they werenít feeling any pain when they got hit. They were just playing around.

    I find the same holds true for jacked up Air Soft guns. But when I make them wear T-Shirts, gym shorts and goggles, things are quite different.

    Once they start getting raspberries and start bleeding from the hits the smiles come right off their faces. They use cover well, take instruction better and THINK harder.

    Thatís been my experience anyway. Just canít find many guys who want to play that way.
    That's exactly how I'd like it to be when I can do FOF or else I wouldn't really feel like I was getting what I paid for.
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    [QUOTE=AOK;2469008]In some cases that may be true. I think what DRM is pointing out is sometimes it takes negative reinforcement before some people learn.

    As for your point, while the pain may be forgotten it is up to the student to learn from their mistakes, apply ttp's taught by the instructor and adjust the way they train.[/QUOTE]


    We could very easily turn this into a circular conversation given we are basically in agreement.

    As has already been stated, FOF is dependent on mindset. For those interested in self defense FOF will be of value regardless of pain. I know of several people that use SIRT pistols for FOF. For the "gamer" it will be of little value because it will be seen as a game and nothing more. As an example, three of us did a class that had FOF as part of it. I am not a competition shooter, the other two are. My carry gun is a Glock and I carry AIWB and my airsoft is also a Glock ( I did my homework before class) One of the others carries a Glock AIWB and competes with a 1911, his airsoft is a Glock. The other carries a 1911 strong side hip and competes with a 1911, his airsoft is also 1911. As the day went on our 1911 only shooter moved his holster to from hip to AIWB and borrowed one the instructors Glock airsoft pistols. The reason for the changes? He was missing disengaging one or both of the safeties on his 1911 and when drawing from hip carry he was snagging on his shirt. He was pretty much getting shot to pieces, he looked like he had the measles. After making the changes he started winning some of his fights. Since that day, he still carries a 1911 strong side hip, never practices the GOTX movements that were proven successful in class and hasn't, as far as I know, not once practiced FOF. He is still doing very well in competition though. The point is, what is proven to a person beyond a doubt is of little consequence if the mindset is wrong. Me, I wear a heavy shirt, gloves, full face mask (those little BB's can break teeth) and a cup. I also wear a cup, mouth piece and head gear when I punch/kick spar.

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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    As to how I do FOF... I carry XDsc as my EDC and use a 1911 airsoft do not use the manual safety, carry both my EDC and airsoft AIWB. Go into the training just like I carry on the street except I do wear a face mask with a cap turned around backward. Bill of the cap covers the back of the neck, which taking a hit there hurts (or at least on me)

    Yes those BBs make marks and you may bleed some but I want to know if I get hit, even slightly. I have trained as to what to do in a situation and I try to stay with that training even using airsoft. I'm GOTX going through my multiple assailants attack as trained and I see the hits taken while doing so as helping me program to keep fighting even though I am being hit. In the real fight just because you take a hit does not mean you have to stop fighting. If you can still move and work the trigger then keep doing so. Also keep pulling the trigger even if you can't move, YOU ain't dead yet!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRM View Post
    IMO, FoF is about as close as you can get to the real thing, and then ONLY if you make the them pay. Let me explain:

    When I first did FoF with SIMS I noticed the guys who were wearing layers of sweats, gloves and face shields. And they were always smiling, having fun, taking chances and not worrying about getting hit. There was absolutely NO FEAR present because they weren’t feeling any pain when they got hit. They were just playing around.

    I find the same holds true for jacked up Air Soft guns. But when I make them wear T-Shirts, gym shorts and goggles, things are quite different.

    Once they start getting raspberries and start bleeding from the hits the smiles come right off their faces. They use cover well, take instruction better and THINK harder.

    That’s been my experience anyway. Just can’t find many guys who want to play that way.
    Makes perfect sense.
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    It's been a lttle over 24 hours since this thread was started. There have been 11 replies by 6 people other than the OP on a topic that should garner the most attention on a forum called Defensive Carry. But it doesn't, it never does, not on any forum. FOF is the most consistantly overlooked and underutilized means for developing gunfighting skills while at the same time being the best method for developing these skills. Why?

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    It's kinda like what Yogi Berra use to say when they asked him why attendance was down at the ball park. He said something like this:

    "Hey, if the people don't want to go, who's gonna stop 'em?"
    Last edited by DRM; November 30th, 2012 at 07:46 PM.
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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick21 View Post
    It's been a lttle over 24 hours since this thread was started. There have been 11 replies by 6 people other than the OP on a topic that should garner the most attention on a forum called Defensive Carry. But it doesn't, it never does, not on any forum. FOF is the most consistantly overlooked and underutilized means for developing gunfighting skills while at the same time being the best method for developing these skills. Why?
    JMO, For the same reason most will just give the BG what he asks for if they ever come face to face. They're afraid of pain and the thought of losing. They can shoot the small groups standing on the line shooting at paper and tell themselves how good they are. But when the real test comes most will fold and give in.

    Yes there are those who buy a gun and win their fight the next day without any training what so ever, but that was luck. I hate to depend on luck by its self, better to prepare what one can.

    This tread will not help most here but if only one goes out and gets training and does FOF then it helped someone and this tread has been worth it.

    These remarks will be looked down on by many but it's no skin off my nose, lying to themselves will only hurt them in the long run.
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    Senior Member Array ExaltedOne's Avatar
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    My personal experience with simunition/FOF made me not ever want to carry a gun with a safety as I forgot to disengage the safety. I was pulling the trigger but nothing was coming out and I took around six hits.

    Though before that I did have two previous scenarios in which I did well.

    The gun was a modified 92F.

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