How do we stop all this mass shooting

This is a discussion on How do we stop all this mass shooting within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ccw9mm Layered defenses matter. Can't be stopping violent attack with what you don't have. The basic aspects are fairly straightforward. Though, I'm ...

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  1. #76
    Member Array 3wggl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Layered defenses matter. Can't be stopping violent attack with what you don't have.

    The basic aspects are fairly straightforward. Though, I'm sure there are more elements within each area that can be considered.

    Basically, you either identify at-risk folks ahead of time, de-fang them, stop them at the gates, stop them inside the gates, or fail (and get attacked). Little different whether speaking of sleeping at home, going to school, being caught out shopping, sitting in a bank, or working at the office.

    IMO ...

    1. Identify the assailant before violence is attempted -- either via tips from those who know the assailant, or counseling/psychiatric interdiction, or being captured for some other crime, or having a meteor falling on the assailant's head.

      Ideally, strengthening our advance-warning systems will help identify a percentage of at-risk people and get them help before things blow up into full-scale violent threats against innocents.

      • Training for parents, teachers, psychiatrists, healthcare professionals, police -- to help identify at-risk behaviors early, so they can be effectively dealt with.
      • Improved communication between key parties, to streamline identification, evaluation, intervention.
      • Appropriate statutory/funding changes to streamline and support such efforts.
      • Guard against the "pre-crime" risk and the potential for abuse.



    2. Take steps to eliminate the ability of the most-violent to commit violence -- via removal from society (via incarceration or execution), or elimination of weaponry in the hands of such criminals.

      • Mental health treatment
      • Violent criminal segregation -- work camps, imprisonment, execution (for the most irredeemably violent)
      • Possible elimination of weaponry from violent criminals -- though, they too are citizens. And while they're not engaging in criminal acts against others, they too have every right to be capable of defending themselves against criminal attack. Must balance the threats with the costs/benefits of erasure of rights of being armed. Existing attempts at disarming criminals have utterly failed; at best, only re-captured criminals get disarmed, and they re-arm the moment they're released.



    3. Make it difficult/impossible to reach the intended victim(s) -- via hardening a facility's doors/windows, procedures and tactics.

      It's important to do everything we can to provide practical and effective strengthening of doors, windows, entry paths, procedures, tactics and training, such that a violent assailant cannot reach the "sensitive" targets (people in the bedrooms, classrooms, offices; or, the gold/money in the safe).

      • Door strengthening -- stronger, thicker doors, frames, locking mechanisms.
      • Window strengthening -- stronger, wired glass panes, stronger frames, locking mechanisms.
      • Alarms, monitoring.
      • Layout/design improvements -- Better-designed buildings can help segregate "public" access areas from "protected" areas containing at-risk staff or stuff. Only suitable for new structures, costly revamp of older/existing structures.
      • Staffing -- a "castle's walls" aren't much good unless they're manned by competent and effective people.
      • Training, tactics -- strong training programs can help people understand how to effectively react in emergency situations.
      • Funding -- each of these steps requires the funds to achieve them. Many are relatively low-cost, but many can be costly in terms of funds, time.



    4. Stop an assailant at the moment of violence -- requires weaponry, skills and tactics in combination sufficient to survive the attack.

      It's critical to have the capability of making a last stand, via a combination of weaponry, skills and tactics sufficient to stop violent attack. Required in the event that the earlier steps fail to stop the assailant.

      Absolutely critical, if a person is out and about, outside of some facility/structure that can otherwise be hardened or protected beyond the person's need to be capable of his/her own defense. Nobody else is likely to protect a person here, given that armed/capable helpers are likely to be elsewhere on the instant of a violent attack.

      • Pepper sprays
      • Batons
      • Firearms
      • Skills -- defensive skills, including hand-to-hand, using weaponry.
      • Tactics -- must be trained how to effectively manage/alter situations to turn the tables on an assailant.
      • Quick-reaction teams -- key members of staff, students, responders can train to effectively work together in such situations, to handle specific tasks and take advantage of situation dynamics.
      • Time, funds -- requires the staff, time and funding to acquire such weaponry, skills. Not all staff will be suitable to all forms of skills/weaponry.

    Are you in a leadership role within our Government? If not, you should be. Your ideas and sound logic are exactly what we need at this moment.

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  3. #77
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    Exclamation

    Preventative maintenance of the mentally insane is a noble effort and should definitely be addressed by our government for sure, but...


    THE IMMEDIATE GOV'T RECOMMENDED FIX IS NOT A FIX NOR IS IT IMMEDIATE!!!

    Taking away the constitutional gun rights of the armed citizen IS NOT the answer to the violent criminal. It's the answer FOR the violent criminal to have his way with our children and innocent, helpless citizens.

    The cure-all for the "immediate problem" is the armed citizen (who knows how to shoot) and makes the bad guy DRT.
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  4. #78
    New Member Array Reddragon317's Avatar
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    Well said...

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Want to stop mass shootings?

    Do away with gun free zones.

    Gun Free Zones are dangerous places. Only the law abiding disarms themselves while thugs go armed and ignore such illogical and stupid laws.

    This Liberalism/touchy/feely crap will be and is the undoing of this great country. When we "man up" and start eliminating shooters on the spot, then and only then will "mass" shootings cease to be.

    Lets stop giving the bad guys the advantage.
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  5. #79
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    I have not been on for awhile. However, I wanted to see what everyone was thinking. This is such a tragedy, I agree we have to do something to try and prevent this from happening again. Do not shoot the messenger, but I'll throw this out for discussion (I'm sure it will be lively). A friend of mine who works for the same company I do lives on Long Island. Up there the news is saturated with this story. Nonetheless, we have a young lady up there who is from France. My friend asked her if it could happen in her country. She said it doesn't happen because they do not allow anyone to have guns. So, the theory is, if we change the constitution and ban all guns, would this problem go away in this country?

  6. #80
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    That’s the theory, but just how drugs have shown us BG will still get and use them, guns will be the same.
    You can’t use the amount of guns are in the country to gun related crime, and compare other counties. I’m sure there justice system is different too. I am not sure about France, but in Germany your first DUI is a felony!
    You have to think about their society as well their culture is different than ours. They have different values and norms. It’s almost imposable to compare countries to each other, there are too many variables.
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  7. #81
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    The thing that is so frustrating about this is the lack of reason. While public massacres are horrific tragedies, we unfortunately have a lot of uninformed citizens that simply don't understand why and how such atrocities can happen.

    The reality is, I'm guessing over the past 25 years, maybe a dozen or so people have committed these mass murders. Yet there are literally millions, probably tens of millions, good citizens and gun owners that have never harmed anyone and won't unless they are attacked. So the first question is, how does punishing millions, if not tens of millions, of people stop a dozen or so madmen from killing?

    If we really don't want this to happen again, train and arm teachers. Unless we can guarantee no madman can get his hands on a gun, and we can't, then our teachers and students remain as defenseless persons, herded into inescapable, inadequately protected structures, where they are essentially trapped and defenseless while the madmen have their way with them.

    I can promise you, if your children were in my classroom (I am a teacher) and came under attack, I promise you, you would rather have me there with my gun than without it. Once the madmen start killing, it won't stop until they are confronted with deadly force.

    It is especially frustrating to me, because I face this potential threat every day I'm in my classroom, and my government sees to it that I am as defenseless as I can be - and get this - to keep the campus safe.

    I still remember the president of Virgina Tech saying after 32 people died there and concealed carry came up, he said and I paraphrase, guns have no place on campus, we want our students to feel safe. How utterly ridiculous!

    Does he not realize it is that very mindset and restrictions that got the students killed?

    How many times does this sort of thing have to happen before people wake up to the reality that the school resource officer, the police, the state government, the federal government, gun control laws cannot protect the public from madmen?
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  8. #82
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MP45Man View Post
    I have not been on for awhile. However, I wanted to see what everyone was thinking. This is such a tragedy, I agree we have to do something to try and prevent this from happening again. Do not shoot the messenger, but I'll throw this out for discussion (I'm sure it will be lively). A friend of mine who works for the same company I do lives on Long Island. Up there the news is saturated with this story. Nonetheless, we have a young lady up there who is from France. My friend asked her if it could happen in her country. She said it doesn't happen because they do not allow anyone to have guns. So, the theory is, if we change the constitution and ban all guns, would this problem go away in this country?
    it happened in Norway so it could happen in France, England, Australia,all it takes is someone determined to kill, and they will find a way. Whether they use firearms, explosives, knives, machetes, the people killed are just as dead.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  9. #83
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    Tangle, couldn't agree more. Imagine the potential result if the principal had a gun when she rushed the shooter in Newton. Very possible, no child dies as a result.
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    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  10. #84
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    This thread was done at post #3. Question answered by Hotguns.
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  11. #85
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    The reality is, I'm guessing over the past 25 years, maybe a dozen or so people have committed these mass murders. Yet there are literally millions, probably tens of millions, good citizens and gun owners that have never harmed anyone and won't unless they are attacked. So the first question is, how does punishing millions, if not tens of millions, of people stop a dozen or so madmen from killing?
    It can't help, of course, disarming people ahead of meeting a well-toothed lion. The only methods that will work entail de-fanging the lion and keeping the lion away from its intended victims.

    This is the exact sort of overreaching, unjustified, unconstitutional and horribly risky path ol' Ben Franklin warned us about, back when: "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security."

    If that isn't tossing the baby out with the bathwater, I can't think of a better example.


    • Go after the gangs, extremely aggressively -- find them, and destroy/eject them.

    • Go after the known ingress routes for drug mules, convoys, coyotes -- find them, and destroy/eject them.

    • Go after the captured violent -- find them, charge them, and execute the most-violent and most-recidivist of them.

    • Beef up physical security to the extent possible -- harden procedures and facilities, arm/train people, unleash citizen ownership of defensive weaponry to all corners of society. Staff the most at-risk areas (schools, churches, buses, stadium/theater events ... the densest "fish in a barrel" settings we have) with armed security to a level that'll make a difference. Heavily support serious training and skills enhancement on effective defense and resistance against violence.

    • Avoid disarming the intended victims ahead of violence, doing nothing to repel the violent when they come, lashing out at the upstanding when they do stand up to be counted during repelling of the violent.


    Yup. Steps like those just might help.
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  12. #86
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3wggl View Post
    Are you in a leadership role within our Government?
    No, I'm not in such a role. But it frosts me that even the least person can understand the basic aspects of making it more-difficult for another to reach us in violent capacity, from our own experiences at home and on the street, given what we've seen working and failing. It's not really rocket science, not the basics. What frosts me is that very, very little, practically nothing by comparison to what could be done, is being done in the vast majority of places.

    Prime example: hardening and "defending" a school of hundreds of children so heavily that a single attacker could merely "break a window" and enter at his whim. Utterly intolerable. But utterly predictable.

    There are plenty of folks out there who have vast, untapped experience in designing hardened facilities, hardening existing facilities, creating viable and effective procedures and training plans, arming appropriate staff ... we merely need to have the will to go after it. Experts abound, who have uber-deep experience that has extreme value here. And, Volunteers? I'm sure we have millions who could be tapped, to assist in such efforts. If only.
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    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mulle46 View Post
    it happened in Norway so it could happen in France, England, Australia,all it takes is someone determined to kill, and they will find a way. Whether they use firearms, explosives, knives, machetes, the people killed are just as dead.
    I get this on every level. But this massacre has really got me depressed. I can't even imagine what the parents of those children are going through. Plenty of opinions on this thread, but how many have empirical evidence that they would actually work. I don't know what the answer is, but I'm willing to agree to about anything that would prevent this from happening again in my life time.

  14. #88
    Member Array Joshp689's Avatar
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    Hey CCW9MM what are you doing in about 4 years?.................................. wana be our president?

    You seem to see what I see. Most of these people “evolve” into mass murders. There are several levels we can stop this from happening. There is so much we could do that wouldn’t change gun laws better or worse.
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    Lightbulb

    Blaming the guns for mass murder is like blaming the airplanes for 9/11...



    "The correct answer to the violent criminal is the armed citizen." - Col. Jeff Cooper
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    Here is something I have thought about over the past few years.

    What are the babies being born addicted to drugs or damaged by drugs or booze going to be when they grow older?

    I am not saying they are doomed, but the brain rests in a "bath" of delicate chemical balance. I can see where a child born with this balance being "off" can have mental problems. This is a study that crys to be made and so far I have seen nothing addressing it.
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