Is this the setting factor and ability for a fighting Mindset

This is a discussion on Is this the setting factor and ability for a fighting Mindset within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Mike1956 No, I didn't edit anything. If someone can't shoot Bambi, he will probably flinch when the jihadist or mugger is coming ...

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  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array chuckusaret's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    No, I didn't edit anything. If someone can't shoot Bambi, he will probably flinch when the jihadist or mugger is coming at him, as well. We obviously disagree on relevance, which doesn't make either of us a bad guy.
    Not true, IMO a poor analogy, makes no difference if you can shoot Bambi or not, Bambi does not impose any type of a threat but if she did I am quite sure the majority of people would not hesitate to use deadly force to defend themselves and their loved ones. I served with many soldiers in peace and war that were against the killing of any living thing but would not/did not hesitate, if attacked, to defend themselves or others with deadly force.
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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    I doubt most Air Force and Navy fighter pilots getting winged today have been in more than one fist fight in their lives. Marine fighter pilots are a different story.

  4. #18
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    I think the fighting mindset is engraved into our DNA...second nature if you will. Its a survival instinct. I think the difference between a good fighter and bad is all about heart, righteousness, and a belief in oneself. Could be wrong but the fighter pilot thing seems like a bunch of nonsense.
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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    The capacity for violence is driven by several things. Some good, some bad. Each person has a capacity that is determined by outward enviromental influence, and inner conviction.

    Outward influence may come from an abusive upbringing, seeing your mother struck by your father, or being physically abused yourself.
    Or, it can come from deep rooted inner convictions, that allow a person to be willing to use force to repel a preconceived idea of evil or wrong doing.
    The idea that all men have this capacity is based upon the extent of influence these may have on ones life.

    A bullie is seeking validation thru violence, and has an emotional flaw on his character that will not allow him to harness his desire to push his will on others. It is a receipt for defeat, because he lack the internal conviction to stay in the fight, if he cannot impose his will on someone of stronger conviction a moral character.

    When the warrior with conviction let's the dog loose, it's in it to win it, come hell or high water. The winning serves a higher purpose, and the intensity has focus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckusaret View Post
    Not true, IMO a poor analogy, makes no difference if you can shoot Bambi or not, Bambi does not impose any type of a threat but if she did I am quite sure the majority of people would not hesitate to use deadly force to defend themselves and their loved ones. I served with many soldiers in peace and war that were against the killing of any living thing but would not/did not hesitate, if attacked, to defend themselves or others with deadly force.
    Upon what set of facts do you base your certainty? If one hasn't killed previously, the likelihood of doing so without hesitation is theoretical at best, wrong at worst.
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    mine is driven by the survival instinct and the fact that I just am not a very good loser. Blame it on high school sports.
    Kimbers are the guns you show your friends....Glocks are the ones you show your enemies.

  8. #22
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    Its all about mindset.

    I used to fight a lot when I was a kid. I was a blond,curly haired blue eyed kid that went to grade school with a bunch of Portuguese kids who dads all owned fishing and lobster boats. I caught a lot of flack for the simple reason that I looked different. I 'd get in a fight during recess and I spent a lot of time standing in from of the Principals office. I didn't ever start any, but it was a constant thing.

    My Mom was a liberal that was born and raised in Boston. My Dad was in the Navy, and he was gone all the time. My Mom would go to school, meet with the Principals and Teachers(she came to know them on a first name basis) and spent the rest of the day lecturing me about fighting and how it never accomplished anything. She did not want me fighting and told me that it was wrong to fight. I believed this until I was in the 4th grade. I got beat up a lot, often getting jumped at the school bus by 2 or 3 individuals that took great delight in whooping me. I did little to fight back because my Mom and my teachers told me it was wrong.

    My dad was a redneck from Arkansas. He was known as "wild Bill" in his early Navy days. Although he never started a fight, he did not back down. People were terrified of him. He had enough of an air of confidence about him that few people trifled with him. He has a reputation as a fierce fighter if pushed. I have heard others tell of him whipping several people at at time when push came to shove.

    One day I got chased home while getting off the bus. My Das had just returned from a tour in Vietnam. I got pushed down on the ground and one of the kids got a new set of cowboy boots that he bounced off of my head a few times. I had some pretty good knots on my head.

    My Dad became enraged. He called the Principal and threw a fit. He told him that since they refused to do anything about it, that he would teach me how to take care of the problem. And he did. He told me to forget everything that I had been told about fighting by people that had never been in a fight. He told me that a man had to defend himself and had to be able to do it well enough to not only take care of him self,but that when I grew up and had a family of my own,that as a Man I had to know how to defend them too.

    He got a set of boxing gloves and we sparred everyday. I learned various techniques, I learned to quickly jab, block, and when to commit to a hard knockout punch. I learned footwork moving in and out, moving to the opposite of the strong side of an opponent. Being that I was left handed, I learned to exploit the defensive techniques that were typical of right handers. I don't know it until many years later, but for a period of time he was a Golden Gloves boxing champion. He knew how to fight and he was a wickedly effective teacher.

    I started standing up for myself when challenged. I started winning...mostly because no one knew how to fight a left hander. Eventually the buddies that stuck together started challenging me two or three at a time. I took some abuse, but learned to deal with it to the point I started winning against several at a time and they eventually they left me alone. All of them. What used to be an easy mark that wouldn't fight that was amusing to them all of a sudden became too much effort for them to mess with.

    I learned at at young age that pacifism was a bunch of crap. That peace through superior firepower was feared and respected by abusive people and they they respected little else. Those lessons that I learned in grade school proved to be true through out life...and age did not matter.

    So, I learned to fight and I learned to win. With the right training, the right skills, and above all the right mindset...just having those at ones disposal in many cases was enough to stop a fight before it started whether it was some pimply faced bully in grade school or some drugged out crack head that could tell right off by the look in your eyes that he needed to mess with someone else.

    Those lessons have served me well. Whether it be with fists or football or basketball or baseball or free sparring in martial arts, all of which I have done, to bearing arms in foreign country's and doing your best to stay alive when bullets are going out and coming in...its about attitude and mindset.Its about winning at all costs. Its about not accepting less than the best.

    The fighters...they know what they can do and how they will perform. Some people are born with a will to win at all costs, others never care about it at any time in their life. Some people naturally move to violence, while most run away from it. Most people, given the right circumstances can be taught it. But one thing that we are absolutely doing now, is trying to breed that fighting spirit and the will to win out of our children. We are raising up a nation of Pansy's that will eventually serve the purpose of being cannon fodder.Many of them expect defeat before they even try. They are taught the fighting for any reason is wrong. From a young age they are taught that since everyone gets a trophy for showing up, that it doesn't really matter if you win or not. That a score really doesn't matter as long as someone self esteem isn't damaged and we can see where that sort of crap is getting us.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  9. #23
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Its all about mindset.
    Let me just speak to this part of your post. There are 65 year old Vietnam vets who I wouldn't have any part of because they have the mindset that takes them from peace to kill instantly. Where many see a good old fashioned fist fight, they see mortal combat. This mindset also holds true for many criminals. You (speaking generally, the supposedly good guy) could be hanging out at the bar and exchange a few words with a dude, and before you know it, he smashed a pint glass into your face.

    Point being, as much as modern America is trying to ween it away, the propensity to commit extreme levels of violence is still valuable in many settings.

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    You speaking generally, the supposedly good guy) could be hanging out at the bar and exchange a few words with a dude, and before you know it, he smashed a pint glass into your face.
    Perhaps. Its never happened though.

    I would like to think that my state of awareness would be such that I would detect that before it happened and that I had enough manners to not want to make someone waste his glass of beer on my face.

    Point being, as much as modern America is trying to ween it away, the propensity to commit extreme levels of violence is still valuable in many settings
    At the present rate of decay, it may become more valuable in the future.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  11. #25
    Distinguished Member Array chuckusaret's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Upon what set of facts do you base your certainty? If one hasn't killed previously, the likelihood of doing so without hesitation is theoretical at best, wrong at worst.
    You would most likely be speaking a different language if your theory were true. I would venture to say that not one in ten million of our soldiers ever killed another human being prior to serving in combat. Did some some, on their first engagement with the enemy, hesitate? Maybe, but only until their survival instincts kicked in. Even for the hardened combat veteran the act of taking another human beings life has deep lingering effects and afterwards makes life a daily struggle for those that can not lock the memories away. Do I hunt deer? No. Have I killed another human being? Yes, and it can not be compared, in any way, with not being able to kill a deer. Mike1956 have you ever served with a ground force in combat and experienced an actual engagement with an enemy force? It is quickly, without hesitation, learned to kill or to be killed.
    US Army 1953-1977

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  12. #26
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    Pat Rogers talks about something that is similar to this in his "Basic Carbine" DVD. I've mentioned it on here before in another post/thread. Pat said that the problem we have today is that nobody every gets into fights. He says that a lot of people today lack the "mean gene". According to Rogers, you either have it or you don't. He relates all of this to the combat mindset, the ability to win the fight. Rogers says that one has to be able to transition from condition white, unknowing consciousness to condition red, getting into a fight. Rogers is convinced that you cannot learn mindset. You may, however, have it and not know it. It may be lying dormant until something happens to bring it out.

    Would Rogers agree with the quote that is provided? I think he would say that we don't really see the kind of behavior as illustrated in the 1940's in today's society. Its not ones past behavior, however, that sets the mindset but one's ability to transition from condition white to condition red. In this regard, it is one's intrinsic "capacity for violence" that determines mindset. In other words, I think Rogers would agree with the spirit of the quote but he may provide a caveat.

    Personally, the quote provided sounds like an urban myth. I don't think the alleged assessment was ever made. It sounds like its playing off of a stereotype. I'm sure fighter pilots, as a group, have things in common. Typically pilots are, for example, very intelligent, and have great eye sight. To say that the fighter pilots have the same kind of temperament when they were kids, however, seems to be reaching without having some kind of evidence to back it up. I tend to agree with Rogers' assessment. We don't see fights the same as we did years and years ago. Do people today lack a fighter mindset? I don't think we are lacking. There's plenty of violence in the world so the capacity for violence is present. I believe a fighting mindset is more than violence in of itself. Fighting has to do with having the courage of your conviction. Just because someone may have enough wisdom to avoid conflict, he/she isn't necessarily lacking a fighting mindset. There's nothing wrong with picking your battles. It doesn't mean you lack mindset, it could only mean that you have never fulfilled your contingencies set in place to follow through in battle.

  13. #27
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    My belief is that those who have the true GG combative mindset there is little difference to them and the BG they fight, in what they will do. It's just they what they do is more in control. Therefore they don't do it unless there is a need for protection, it's not acted on in aggressive fashion against others without cause.

    Like my one sig line says "It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby." Combative mindset is in you at birth, the fights one has as a child along with playing sports and hunting and ect help to bring that being, that is inside you, to the surface. Most everyone has it but ones life is what brings it to the surface and to what level it is brought.

    Those who think about being tough are usually those who talk about how they can and will do things. Like the teenage kids of my days meeting on the street corner they talked more than they fought. Kids of the Getto of today have brought ability to the surface and to a level of not only doing H2H fighting but shooting on sight and lost all control over their mindset.

    To me a true combative mindset is winning at all costs, no matter what.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Its all about mindset.

    I used to fight a lot when I was a kid.


    The fighters...they know what they can do and how they will perform. Some people are born with a will to win at all costs, others never care about it at any time in their life. Some people naturally move to violence, while most run away from it. Most people, given the right circumstances can be taught it. But one thing that we are absolutely doing now, is trying to breed that fighting spirit and the will to win out of our children. We are raising up a nation of Pansy's that will eventually serve the purpose of being cannon fodder.Many of them expect defeat before they even try. They are taught the fighting for any reason is wrong. From a young age they are taught that since everyone gets a trophy for showing up, that it doesn't really matter if you win or not. That a score really doesn't matter as long as someone self esteem isn't damaged and we can see where that sort of crap is getting us.


    ^^I'm in this camp here^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


    Whats in bold I really believe to be true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The capacity for violence is driven by several things. Some good, some bad. Each person has a capacity that is determined by outward enviromental influence, and inner conviction.

    Outward influence may come from an abusive upbringing, seeing your mother struck by your father, or being physically abused yourself.
    Or, it can come from deep rooted inner convictions, that allow a person to be willing to use force to repel a preconceived idea of evil or wrong doing.
    The idea that all men have this capacity is based upon the extent of influence these may have on ones life.

    A bullie is seeking validation thru violence, and has an emotional flaw on his character that will not allow him to harness his desire to push his will on others. It is a receipt for defeat, because he lack the internal conviction to stay in the fight, if he cannot impose his will on someone of stronger conviction a moral character.

    When the warrior with conviction let's the dog loose, it's in it to win it, come hell or high water. The winning serves a higher purpose, and the intensity has focus.
    Part in bold are things you have correctly, and repeatedly posted here through the years, and they are the
    reason I mentioned "righteousness" in my other post near the start of the thread. I don't know either you
    or Hot Guns, but after years of reading your posts I understand that what motivates you as peace officers
    is that deep sense of right and wrong; that is what enables a combat mindset; as you stated-- "the winner
    has a higher purpose." Sometimes the righteous lose, but IMO there really is a moral component
    to all of this.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  16. #30
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Perhaps. Its never happened though.

    I would like to think that my state of awareness would be such that I would detect that before it happened and that I had enough manners to not want to make someone waste his glass of beer on my face.



    At the present rate of decay, it may become more valuable in the future.
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