Speed. Its essential to your health.

This is a discussion on Speed. Its essential to your health. within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Im not a professional instructor though I do have some background and training in security and self defense. So I occasionally try to help friends ...

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Thread: Speed. Its essential to your health.

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Speed. Its essential to your health.

    Im not a professional instructor though I do have some background and training in security and self defense. So I occasionally try to help friends when they start out cc or even if they have been for a while but just bought a gun and carry it and are able to hit a soda can at 15 yards.
    In my opinion the weakest point most have is a lack of speed. I dont mean speed for speeds sake and cant hit a car at 10 yards but realistic usable speed of draw and fire to center mass at SD distances of 7 to 10 yards.
    Nobody that has started out shooting with me except some ex LEO buddies could get their weapon out and fire in time to not be beaten to death with their own gun.

    They invariably have it well concealed to a point that when I ask them to draw from the normal cc postion they cant draw and fire before I can take 7 normal walking strides. And that is approx 21 feet. Usually they cant even get the gun out before I cover that distance at a normal pace much less rushing them.

    Which brings me to why Im posting this. Tactics, big gun little gun, holsters, what ifs, should I fire or not fire and all the rest vaporize into nothingness if you cannot get your gun out and fire to center mass before your either shot or swarmed or knifed or Godzilla on crack has you by the short hairs.

    I realize before I get corrected that there is every possibility that your attacker could be in contact with you before you know whats happening. Hopefully you have the strength, knowledge, training to still be able to get your gun out and contact shoot the evildoer. But if you cant get your firearm out of where you carry it in the time it takes to cover 21 feet at a normal pace and hit center mass how long is it going to take you to even get it out at all while Mean Joe Green is beating the stuffing out of you?

    Draw and fire is fundamental. And it seems a lot of folks with kinder gentler mindset seem to think that just because they have the latest model bang on them someplace theynever get past buying the gun and holster and shooting a box of ammo to see if they can hit a garbage can at 15 feet

    If you cant draw and fire accurately at SD distance in the time it takes to a person to cover 7 paces at a normal walk Id suggest you get busy working on it until you can. At the very least.
    Then worry about the what would I do if the evil Gark attacks our local mall. JMO worth what you paid for it
    Last edited by Ghost1958; January 7th, 2013 at 02:48 AM. Reason: spelling
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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    What if they are unarmed? Shoot them?

    I see your point, but not every scenario needs to be done by shooting. If they are that close, you have no time for your gun.
    My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

    “Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo.”
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    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    What if they are unarmed? Shoot them?

    I see your point, but not every scenario needs to be done by shooting. If they are that close, you have no time for your gun.
    If you happen to be physically able to deal with the situation no. However there are quite a few of us old, bad ticker, half crippled dudes that being attacked by some half our age in good health even unarmed at least in my state is legal grounds to " be in fear of serious bodily harm or death". My attacker does not have to be armed and I have no duty to retreat. I simply have to have a reasonable fear of serious bodily harm or death. As I said my post isnt trying to deal with when and if. But IF the time comes if you cant do what I described you likely are toast in any case.
    My post isnt trying to say when you should as I said in the original post. None of that means anything if you cant do even the basics when you need too.

    7 yards is 21 feet. Shoot someone outside of 21 feet of you that isnt aiming a gun at you and see how far self defense flies in court. 7 to 10 yards is the most common distance for a SD use of lethal force statistically counting encounters where the BG is armed.
    If thats to close for your gun then a lot of folks are shooting people to close to them in SD

  5. #4
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    That is why even after 50 I work out and practice with my tools.

    I am not 25 and bulletproof anymore.
    My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

    “Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo.”
    - H. G. Wells -

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    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    40Bob Im 54. 6 3 and 245. I used to work out lift weights etc but 10 yrs ago my ticker took a dive on me and degenerative spinal disease starting from a 20 ft fall at work started taking it toll. I carry a knife and a pistol.

    All that being said I wish working out would put me in better shape than I am but Im about as good as Im gonna get. A lot of older dudes are. a 20 something my size or even smaller or two or three small dudes my pumper aint gonna hold out long to engage in prolonged physical battle. I dont do anything to provoke anyone to be attacking me so if they are its because they are up to no good.

    Even if I was Hulk Hogan, my post wasnt so much about when and if but that if you cant pull off the basics of using a firearm for defense when you need too your out of luck. Just trying to remind that no matter what you carry if you cant use it to at least a basic SD level you probably should get to work learning and speed of draw and fire is what I see the most as the weak point nobody I know even thinks about when the start cc.

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    MJK
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    Two weeks ago the last stage of a local "fight night" match: 8 yds draw from cover 5 to the body 1 to the head in 2.8 seconds. That was good enough for me. It took lots of practice to get there but most folks will not be willing to put in the time or effort.
    [T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people. ---Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

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    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
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    Message received. An uncomfortable message, yes. But I hear you. I need some for-reals time and effort spent on this.

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    Senior Member Array Luis50's Avatar
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    I think most of us would benefit from some sort of H2H training. James Yeager of Tactical Response feels that a more common defensive situation will happen at three feet, three seconds and with three shots fired. At these distances your brain better be telling your body to do what ever it takes to win, armed or not.

    For me, draw speed is only one component. I want several skills and tools...a quick mind is the most important of them all.
    Luis

    "Everybody's got a plan, 'til they get hit".

    Mike Tyson

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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    The fight will be what the fight will be. The question is are you prepared? The having of a gun has and does work at times, but what if it takes more, can you do it?

    Yes it takes time to practice and money to get the good training one needs. But what is your and those your love lives worth? Only you can answer that. And only you can answer, am I good enough?
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

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    Senior Member Array KBSR's Avatar
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    Statistics on police gun fights haven't changed much over the years. 3-5 rounds, in 3-5 seconds, at 3-5 feet. I'd venture a guess that civilian gun fights aren't much different.

    That's why it is critically important to be in the "when/then" mindset, at all times. It isn't hard, or expensive at all, to practice this life saving technique. Remember action is faster than reaction, so always, always have a plan, ahead of time.

    It isn't hard or expensive to practice your draw, with a SAFE weapon, within the safe confines of your residence. If you always carry in an IWB holster, you should practice getting that weapon unholstered and on target, wearing the type of cover garment you usually use. Your draw should be as fast as safely possible, then you should slow down once you're on target. Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast. When at the range, you should practice the same thing, but with a HOT weapon, remembering that you won't always shoot. Sometimes you draw and DON'T fire in real life. Best to practice this, so you don't get into a rut. Train like you fight, fight like you train right?

    When I was a firearms instructor for my LE agency, I'd insist that my "students" fire at least one course of fire utilizing their "normal" mode of carry, versus the tactical thigh holsters that everyone comes to the firing range with. Opens some eyes, and creates good practice habits.

    Be safe.
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    " But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... Baa." Col. Dave Grossman on Sheep and Sheepdogs.

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    MJK
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    ^^^^^^ What KBSR said! ^^^^^^
    [T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people. ---Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

  13. #12
    AOK
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    A few good posts in this thread already. The way I look at the getting your gun out into the fight as quickly and efficiently as possible.....

    There is always more room to train and prepare yourself for the fight. Never allow yourself to get into a false sense of security. What do I mean?

    The gun owner who carries everyday looks at the "anti's" who believe the police can protect them. The gun owner recognizes this as a false sense of security.

    Take it a step further..... The gun owner who carries everyday, consistently seeks out professional instruction and practices what they learn looks at a gun owner with no training and believes they have a false sense of security.

    Take it a step further..... The gun owner who continues to seek out professional instruction and hand to hand training believes the gun owner with only firearm training has a false sense of security.

    We should never stop learning or let a false sense of security creep in. Recognize our weaknesses and seek out ways to close that gap in your training. Every year I re-evaluate where I am at in my training and shore up my weaknesses. It's kind of like a New Years resolution I guess.
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    Member Array GeorgiaShooter's Avatar
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    Just my opinion. Stand in front of your brick fireplace with snap caps and your cc rig and draw & dry fire practice 30 minutes a week. Realize it will take thousands of draws to debug the issues and become solid. You will become fast and very accurate and instant without firing very much live ammo. I find most people spend all their time and money wasting ammo in a lane at the indoor range. Also very few people know how to actually point shoot and that could mean their death one day. I don't even need sights to hit all A's under 25 feet with any gun I own. And we're talking about 1-1.2 seconds from concealment to the shot.

    On the other hand I find the people that win shooting matches in IDPA and USPSA are not making great hits, they are just so fast their score wins. Speed is nothing without accuracy. Out running your own skill can be a bad mistake. Sometimes you have to strive to actually slow down.

    I also think your situational awareness and avoidance skills should be mastered long before the gun even comes into play. You may be able to avoid the situation all together. Having to draw and fire at someone 8 feet away and closing is your worst case scenario. You better be going for eye sockets or zipper up the middle with 4-5 shots or they are going to run a blade all the way through you. The real answer might be some other move or action first and the gun second.

    I also practice drawing and NOT firing, or coming to low ready. You may NOT want to shoot them and finger out of trigger until firing is critical. In practices we debug this stuff endlessly.


    I just remembered a short video of my own CC dry fire practice, yours may vary. You'll see I also practice recovering from clothing malfunctions and 3-4 other variations like moving out of the line of fire.
    SHORT VIDEO LINK
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec4v47eZoYg


    Here's a one minute video of me responding to two attackers with live fire, revolver and pistol rigs from concealment.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_FmQTYFfhQ

  15. #14
    Senior Member Array Luis50's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgiaShooter View Post
    Just my opinion. Stand in front of your brick fireplace with snap caps and your cc rig and draw & dry fire practice 30 minutes a week. Realize it will take thousands of draws to debug the issues and become solid. You will become fast and very accurate and instant without firing very much live ammo. I find most people spend all their time and money wasting ammo in a lane at the indoor range. Also very few people know how to actually point shoot and that could mean their death one day. I don't even need sights to hit all A's under 25 feet with any gun I own. And we're talking about 1-1.2 seconds from concealment to the shot.

    On the other hand I find the people that win shooting matches in IDPA and USPSA are not making great hits, they are just so fast their score wins. Speed is nothing without accuracy. Out running your own skill can be a bad mistake. Sometimes you have to strive to actually slow down.

    I also think your situational awareness and avoidance skills should be mastered long before the gun even comes into play. You may be able to avoid the situation all together. Having to draw and fire at someone 8 feet away and closing is your worst case scenario. You better be going for eye sockets or zipper up the middle with 4-5 shots or they are going to run a blade all the way through you. The real answer might be some other move or action first and the gun second.

    I also practice drawing and NOT firing, or coming to low ready. You may NOT want to shoot them and finger out of trigger until firing is critical. In practices we debug this stuff endlessly.


    I just remembered a short video of my own CC dry fire practice, yours may vary. You'll see I also practice recovering from clothing malfunctions and 3-4 other variations like moving out of the line of fire.
    SHORT VIDEO LINK
    Drawing practice LCR-357 EDC (DRY FIRE) - YouTube


    Here's a one minute video of me responding to two attackers with live fire, revolver and pistol rigs from concealment.

    PART 3 of 3 Collateral Drill Slow Motion LCR22 and P250 SIG - YouTube
    Very good training sir! Thanks for posting. Just as and added feature, I might suggest moving off line of the muzzle when doing your version of collateral.
    Luis

    "Everybody's got a plan, 'til they get hit".

    Mike Tyson

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    Member Array GeorgiaShooter's Avatar
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    Thanks Luis, I will take that advice to heart. I seem to remember this drill has me striking the back of their wrist with the inside blade of my forearm to knock their gun. And when I tried to move offline left it defeated my power, maybe I should try to move right even though it puts me in front of bad guy #2. It's funny you mention this because I trained for so many years crouching and stepping aside that even now my accuracy and hits are better that way than standing still. Good eye though....

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