Force on Force

This is a discussion on Force on Force within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I attended the Glock Summit last weekend, hosted by OPS in Titusville, FL in the Police Hall of Fame building. Among the many instructors giving ...

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Thread: Force on Force

  1. #1
    Member Array Rocnerd's Avatar
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    Force on Force

    I attended the Glock Summit last weekend, hosted by OPS in Titusville, FL in the Police Hall of Fame building. Among the many instructors giving two hour training sessions on various subjects were; John Farnum, Andy Stanford, and Bill Davison. Among the different blocks of time was a Force on Force drill running all day.
    I had never attended a Force on Force training session before, and so was really looking forward to it. I now believe that this is the best type of training in order to prepare us for what lies in store should we ever be attacked or need to use our weapons in a self-defense situation. My next training course I attend will be somewhere that offers force on force training.

    The scenario was this: You are making a delivery. Take this bag and go knock on that door around the corner. That was it. That was all the information we were given. Upon arriving at the door a person who was sitting at a table near the entrance gets up and begins a dialogue with you. All the while he is closing the distance and soon you find yourself with your back to a corner and this guy in between you and open space. Well, that is were I found myself anyway. I too late realized my situation and then "dithered", as John Farnum would say, and started to go one way, changed my mind and went the other way and promptly got my throat slashed open while attempting to get my shirt out of the way and draw my weapon (Simunitions Glock 17). End of scenario. Result = "dead" Rocnerd. Man was my adrenaline pumping. After being killed we went over what I did wrong and watched the video of the whole scene. I then got a second chance and survived that time. All in all an eye opening experience that I recommend to all who want to be as prepared as they possibly can.

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  3. #2
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    Roc - FOF is something I do want to try - I can well believe it is the ultimate in the combat representation. Whether my aging frame would survive the adrenaline OD I am not sure

    I seem to remember Tangle here is one of several who has been this route.
    Chris - P95
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    FOF is eye openning isn't it! It just never happens like we "visualize" it, and it's rarely as simple or straightforward as it appears to be.

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    Member Array tj1231's Avatar
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    I just wanted to say that I always enjoy reading FOF threads, and encourage anyone who has been through them to share their experiences.

    MODS: is there any way that you could dedicate a sticky thread or something that would keep them all in one place?

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    tj - we try to avoid too many stickies because in the end they cease to be noticed so much.

    I think probably within this forum - a search for FOF etc should turn up most info we have gotten posted. Could be good too to have - like this one - the title stating the subject nicely.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Senior Member Array hsuCowboy98's Avatar
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    FOF is truly an eye opening experiance. Everytime I run through a course I end up learning an entirely new, and entirely valuable lesson.

    I highly encourage anyone who has never done it to do it as soon as possible. It is a great and valuable training tool.
    Last edited by hsuCowboy98; October 20th, 2006 at 01:19 PM. Reason: spelling
    Fear No Evil.

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    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    I have gone through a good amount of FOF. It is the best type of training available IMHO. Every technique or tactic that you learn needs to be tested in FOF. You will be surprised what works and what does not work.

    FOF training is best when it is put together and overseen by a professional. Once you have witnessed how a good FOF course is run, you can run them yourself with your friends, family, and training partners.

    The best FOF course that I have taken was but on by Gabe Suarez. Check out this link for the AAR. http://www.suarezinternational.com/igfdebriefing.html
    Last edited by Sweatnbullets; October 20th, 2006 at 11:27 PM.

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    Talking

    Do you realize how weird this sentence (below) of yours sounds?

    "After being killed we went over what I did wrong and watched the video of the whole scene."

    If we only ever really got a second chance (after being killed) to watch a vid of what went wrong.

    Remember to train/practice folks...you likely will not get to sit down & watch the vid of how you messed up when it's for real.

    Seriously, sounds like you had a great & worthwhile weekend.

  10. #9
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Most Realistic and Beneficial FOF Training?

    Here are some guidelines to help you set up your own FOF training.

    I was discussing my upcoming Airsoft FOF training with another tactically aware friend. We were discussing how to get the very most out of our sessions and how important it would be to not ingrain bad habits. We were very much in agreement on how to run the scenarios. They would be based on the tactical clearing of buildings, including doors, t-intersections, corners, low-light, team tactics, street encounters, and muzzle discipline

    The issue that kept coming up as the most important issue was how to end the confrontations.

    You have probably all heard about the LEO that disarmed a BG and then handed the gun back, just like in training. Or the LEO that was found dead with a pocket full of empty brass, because he was taught to unload his revolver and pocket his casings, so as not to clutter up his training range. This training is obviously flawed training. We do not want to go down that path.

    We talked about the way paintball confrontations end. You get marked and you throw your hands up and walk off the field. WOW! talk about practicing quitting. So much for being a dedicated GG opponent.


    HOW DO YOU END THE CONFRONTATION?

    First of all we decided that we would want devious BG's. BG's that moved, thought, and fought.

    Second, that we would go with non-standard responses 3-5 shots then consider transitions to the head, because that's reality.

    Third was, as the GG, you did not quit, even if you were hit multiple times, you trained to stay in the fight.

    Fourth, So that it does not turn into just a hose fest game, that the BG would dictate when the fight stopped. When the lessons had been taught and learned the BG would take a knee and set his gun down, simulating that the threat was no longer a threat. That is when you would stop fighting, RIGHT, when the threat was no longer a threat. To train any other way would be just like the flawed training mentioned above. To just let the scenario peter out without the appropriate resolution is practicing for disaster.

    Fifth, the BG would mix up the manner in which the scenarios would end. It may end after a controlled pair to COM. He may fight all the way down and even after he's down. It could take a successful failure to stop. It could be a no-shoot situation. A good dose of deception would always be welcome from a good BG. The GG would never know what it will take to end the fight (sound familiar?)

    And sixth, as the BG it is your job to make the GG learn. The BG does not win. He can practice his shooting and head shots on the move, but he always loses.

    Seventh, after the confrontation is over, go through he appropriate after action drills.

    These are a few of the things we discussed. I wanted to ask you guys what you thought about these ideas. If you have FOF experience great! If you don't, give us your "common sense" opinion.

    What would the most realistic and beneficial FOF training involve?

    How would the confrontations end, so as to ingrain the proper mindset for the proper resolution?

    A few more suggestions

    Work in a good number of no shoot scenarios. Including some that are difficult to gauge.

    Have the BG's work with more than just guns (training knives, rubber bats, etc)

    Make sure everyone knows the scenario and that they make sense. Not all scenarios should be run with gun at the ready. Work in some scenarios where the gun is more covert (ie: in a jacket pocket, still in the holster but the hand is on it.)

    The homeowner dealing with a completely unknown situation.

    Let the BG know what his job is and what he needs to do at the conclusion of the scenario (failure to stop, two in the COM, fight all the way down, or surrender)

    Really work on after action drills. All of this either while moving or as/after you move to cover. If the AAD are not done correctly, have in place a second BG to reinforce (through incoming BB's) the need to see the scenario all the way through.

    Work with multiple adversaries and mix in innocent victims. Really push the need for the proper ID.

    Take damaged limbs out of play.

    I for one, really benefited from the indepth debriefs. Everyone involved or that witnessed the scenario was encouraged to point out the good as well as the bad decisions/actions. Now I agree, this cuts down on the shear "fun" but it leads to a much better learning enviroment. I had people point out things that I had never even considered. Of course this would depend on the number of people that are training, and the time limitations that you have.

    Come up with your own list, just like the one's on these threads and have everyone read it before you train. That way everyone is on the same page and it will be easier to keep under control.

    Ammo supply should match what you normally carry.

    Alternative force should be considered for the GG. (Inert OC, strikes with HG, etc)

  11. #10
    Member Array GlockinItUp's Avatar
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    Guess what I found out? There is a school within three hours of my home that does FOF training!! Looks like I have to start dropping some hints to my fiance' about a certain Christmas present. http://www.tacproshootingcenter.com/
    Gun control is hitting what you aim at...

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    Member Array Rocnerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Do you realize how weird this sentence (below) of yours sounds?

    "After being killed we went over what I did wrong and watched the video of the whole scene."

    If we only ever really got a second chance (after being killed) to watch a vid of what went wrong.

    Remember to train/practice folks...you likely will not get to sit down & watch the vid of how you messed up when it's for real.

    Seriously, sounds like you had a great & worthwhile weekend.
    Yeah, that is what really got me thinking the next day. I mean, I was dead. If that had been real there would be no second chance. I couldn't sleep well the next night thinking about it. Here I thought I was fairly well trained, yet in my first "encounter" (had it been real) I would have been killed. I see that shooting drills against paper is totally different than reacting to another person. I am looking forward to doing more FOF in order to break down the rest of my dillusions and start building up my real world skills.

  13. #12
    Member Array Rocnerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlockinItUp View Post
    Guess what I found out? There is a school within three hours of my home that does FOF training!! Looks like I have to start dropping some hints to my fiance' about a certain Christmas present. http://www.tacproshootingcenter.com/
    Bill Davison was at the Glock Summit. I think you will be impressed with him. He taught the malfunctions class I attended. Ask him to tell the elephant story if you go.

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    Yeah, that is what really got me thinking the next day. I mean, I was dead. If that had been real there would be no second chance. I couldn't sleep well the next night thinking about it. Here I thought I was fairly well trained, yet in my first "encounter" (had it been real) I would have been killed. I see that shooting drills against paper is totally different than reacting to another person. I am looking forward to doing more FOF in order to break down the rest of my dillusions and start building up my real world skills.
    Welcome to the "real world".

    I too thought that I was "trained". It took me but several minutes to realize that most of the LEO training that I had was of slim to no use when it came to real world encounters.

    Fortunately, our training officer invested in some Simunitions equip. and now we do it on a regular basis with different scenarios. They are all eye openers for sure.

    I just wish that everyone that carried a concealed weapon could do force on force drills and learn from it. Those that think they are well prepared because they can shoot a silhouette than cant shoot back dont realize how fast and violent things can get in the blink of an eye and its a real education when someone is shooting back. Luckily, in that scenario we can learn from our mistakes, in hopes that in a real life situation we dont repeat them.

    To me, force on force is the best training short of actually doing it.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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    Member Array gman10111951's Avatar
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    I want to agree with what Sweatnbullets said! I have trained using the information in Gabe Suarez's videos. This coming weekend, I will train with him in his Extreme Close Range Gunfighting course. It contains a lot of FOF at extemely close distances (0-6 feet!) I'm really looking forward to this, and would recommend Suarez International to anyone wanting realistic armed defense training!

    Check out www.suarezinternational.com for more information!
    Texas DPS CHL Instructor

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    It contains a lot of FOF at extemely close distances (0-6 feet!)
    Man...thats going to hurt !
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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