An essay on moving and shooting

This is a discussion on An essay on moving and shooting within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; You can tell he is coming from a military background in his article. But, I did like it for the most part. Like others have ...

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  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    You can tell he is coming from a military background in his article. But, I did like it for the most part. Like others have said, the distances and objectives may not be the same in a civilian SD scenario.

    Personally, I'm not moving anywhere fast in a SD situation. (I can't because of physical disabilities.) But, that being said, I am going to move somewhere, somehow. The important thing to me is NOT to remain where the BG thinks I will be.

    I practice & train my movement & shooting to be synchronized so that my shots occur during those split seconds I am stabilized during movement. I physically cannot run. So, running while shooting is not something I practice.

    However, I can walk fairly fast for a short distance. (10'-20') So, I practice firing at my target that split second when my feet are briefly planted between steps as I move off the "X" and toward any available cover. With practice you can come quite efficient hitting targets moving in all directions.


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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array Weeg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruel Hand Luke View Post
    A military engagement at 25 + yards and a mugging at 2 yards are completely different things. If you do not understand that then what I am about to say might as well be written in sanskrit because you will not understand it.

    Most civilian gunfights (meaning NON military-criminal vs civilian and criminal vs police) take place at less than 5 yards. Standing still at that distance and playing "Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots" with bullets is going to get you shot unless you can guarantee you shoot them first.... But even shooting them first does not always guarantee they do not shoot back....people get shot all the time with handguns and fight on. So if standing still is likely to get you shot ...then do you REALLY want to stand still?

    But it is not a bumper sticker sized answer. There are very rarely "always and never" answers to this stuff. Sometimes standing still works...if you are behind hard cover it makes sense. But standing still at 3 yards when the other guy starts the fight makes little sense.....

    What do you do there? MOVE to keep from getting shot and either shoot them back or get to cover if it is close enough to get to. Again though...what is the context? If they are 3 yards away you probably won't be able to get to cover unless it is 1 step away or less. If cover is not an option, then we need to stop him from shooting and we do that with shooting him. And that can be done if he is close.

    But like I said things are complex. What if he is far away? If he is far away then moving to cover (assuming there is some) makes more sense than shooting and moving because you can move faster to cover just MOVING than you can while moving and shooting. But how many civilian gunfights take place at 15 to 20 yards? Very few.

    Moving and shooting at targets that are 20 yards away will not usually get very good results. Moving and shooting at targets that are 2 yards away is like dropping a golf ball into a swimming pool....kind of hard to miss if you pay attention to what you are doing. Different problems ...different solutions.

    So when Paul Howe says he never shot and moved at same time in Mogadishu I believe him...because the nature of the engagement (Military rifle engagement vs civilian concealed carry pistol) made moving to cover and using the sights the RIGHT answer. But trying to move to cover and use sights at 3 yards when the BG starts the fight does not make nearly as much sense...

    So what paradigm are we training for? Are we training to deal with close range criminal assault or are we training to deal with opponents that are farther than 25 yards away?

    Define YOUR mission and train accordingly.


    A well written summary.


    R

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weeg View Post
    Wow...I spent a long time being unculcated (and it kept me and my team-mates around) never to underestimate the bad guys' abilities...


    Good to see you know BGs TTPs.


    .+
    Thank you. Since I dont have team mates to save my bacon if I mess up I make it my business to as much as I possibly can. I was given good reason too. Hope you never are. But it can be done and you should. And pardon me but im to dumb to know what unculated means but here goes.

    Never get the idea this old buzzard underestimates anyone from a 120 lb tweeker to a 300 lb goon to even people I know except for maybe 5 that I trust and that is it. I learned a hard lesson years ago. Paid a very heavy price for it. Will never forget it.

    Ill keep on armed bad guys. As kbsr says most BG are sloppy. But I dont depend on that. They dont pick victims they think may put them down. Being faced with that doesnt suddenly improve their confidence or aim for that matter. I dont depend on that but it cant hurt.


    HD or SD once the lead starts flying you wont have time to do a fandango. 3 maybe 10 seconds somebody is down or BG is bugging out. In that time youll maybe have time to get off the x and maybe 3 to five feet either way and still be able to hit where you need to be hitting.


    Gunfight 101. Once its started the guy who puts the most firepower where it needs to be first wins if a win is to be had at all. Whatever that takes. However you can do it. 2nd place loses regardless.


    But unless your fighting a running gun battle all over a house or something like that you wont be practicing for dancing with the stars because frankly you wont have time.

    I dont look it but Im an old geeze with a bad ticker and back. I train accordingly. Im big, strong and can put a BGs lights out if i can get a good punch. But no endurance. I dont count on that. I can run but not very far and not very fast. Dont count on that either.

    So my entire focus is speed of draw getting off the x and putting hits where they count as fast as possible. Thats what I train at various distances over and over. With nothing less than 40 cal. I can do it and after years of nothing but honing that I do it pretty well.
    Anything is possible but humans are creatures of habit. Knowing your enemy as best you possibly can aint no bad idea.
    " It is sad governments are chief'ed by the double tongues." quote Ten Bears Movie Outlaw Josie Wales

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array Weeg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    Thank you. Since I dont have team mates to save my bacon if I mess up I make it my business to as much as I possibly can. I was given good reason too. Hope you never are. But it can be done and you should. And pardon me but im to dumb to know what unculated means but here goes.

    Hahahah...it was late. I meant to type 'inculcated'.

    I have/had team-mates in bad places with bad people.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    Never get the idea this old buzzard underestimates anyone from a 120 lb tweeker to a 300 lb goon to even people I know except for maybe 5 that I trust and that is it. I learned a hard lesson years ago. Paid a very heavy price for it. Will never forget it.

    Yup, and underestimating their gun handling/shooting abilities, just once, can be fatal. that was my point.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    Ill keep on armed bad guys. As kbsr says most BG are sloppy. But I dont depend on that. They dont pick victims they think may put them down. Being faced with that doesnt suddenly improve their confidence or aim for that matter. I dont depend on that but it cant hurt.

    I hav no idea what a 'kbsr' is. Bu, I'll give you one example. Lots of guys in th emilitary have been busted, being outed as gang members who join for a few years, then bring their TTPs/training back to their homies...




    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    HD or SD once the lead starts flying you wont have time to do a fandango. 3 maybe 10 seconds somebody is down or BG is bugging out. In that time youll maybe have time to get off the x and maybe 3 to five feet either way and still be able to hit where you need to be hitting.

    I'm well aware of being a moving platform. ALso, don't count on a the BG bugging out as a mindset...plan for them to fight.




    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    Gunfight 101. Once its started the guy who puts the most firepower where it needs to be first wins if a win is to be had at all. Whatever that takes. However you can do it. 2nd place loses regardless.

    uuuuuuuuuuuhhhh...yeah, I realize that...have for a long time.




    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    But unless your fighting a running gun battle all over a house or something like that you wont be practicing for dancing with the stars because frankly you wont have time.


    The meat and potatoes of my post is that it is a scary to underestimate bad guys...having a mindset like "Oh, the bad guys (whether criminals or Crows) will just cut and run when I defend myself...besides, theycan't shoot anway" is a DANGEROUS mindset.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    I dont look it but Im an old geeze with a bad ticker and back. I train accordingly. Im big, strong and can put a BGs lights out if i can get a good punch. But no endurance. I dont count on that. I can run but not very far and not very fast. Dont count on that either.

    Absolutely...sorry you aren't more fit/healthy.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    So my entire focus is speed of draw getting off the x and putting hits where they count as fast as possible. Thats what I train at various distances over and over. With nothing less than 40 cal. I can do it and after years of nothing but honing that I do it pretty well.

    Thats awesome!


    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    Knowing your enemy as best you possibly can aint no bad idea.

    Again, the meat and potatoes of my post.


    Cheers,

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Sounds like we are mostly on the same page then. I confess in all honestly that I am to dumb to know what inculcated means either LOL.
    I will still stand on my statement. The normal BG that is out to rob you etc picks what he thinks is the easiest target available at the time. When it isnt as easy as he thinks if hes a lot of times at least surprised. And that most are as KBSR one of our members here that posted said are for the most part sloppy. If you read any of my other posts Im a hard advocate of never thinking a gun will make anyone back down. My context was if he fights and he probably will, the whole encounter will last seconds not minutes and either you will be down or he will be down or he will be bugging out at which point the fight is over in one of those ways.

    It appears I misread your first post/quote as a sort of smartass response aimed at myself. My apologies.
    " It is sad governments are chief'ed by the double tongues." quote Ten Bears Movie Outlaw Josie Wales

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array Gaius's Avatar
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    I agree with my fellow Suarez guys. I have seen the same problem with some police training. The missions for military and police as opposed to civilian SD shooting at five feet are different. I do not have a partner with me on the street, and I may have a lot of explaining to do to the state's attorney after that 25-50 yard claimed self defense shot. That being said, as was said, things can be complex, or as Suarez likes to say, the fights going to be what the fights going to be. There really is no one size fits all situations.
    Best way to win a gun fight? "That's easy, don't show up."
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    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything."
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  8. #22
    Senior Member Array Weeg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    after that 25-50 yard claimed self defense shot.

    Military = "anything over 21 feet, you should be using your long gun"


    .

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array GentlemanJim's Avatar
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    IMHO being able to hit something while moving at any significant speed is an extremely perishable skill and most would be better off ingraining a step or two to one side as they draw and then shooting from a solid static position. Repeat as necessassary. The vast majority of civilians will never be able to practice enough to stay proficient at moving while shooting.

    I do agree the distance of the encounter is a big factor.

    Jim

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GentlemanJim View Post
    IMHO being able to hit something while moving at any significant speed is an extremely perishable skill and most would be better off ingraining a step or two to one side as they draw and then shooting from a solid static position. Repeat as necessassary. The vast majority of civilians will never be able to practice enough to stay proficient at moving while shooting.

    I do agree the distance of the encounter is a big factor.

    Jim
    Whether it is a extremely perishable skill all comes down to the methodology that you practice. This is true if you use a conditioned method that works off of fine motor skills, but it not true if you use a natural method working off of gross motor skills.

    Properly structured force on force has shown that stepping and stopping inside of a reactionary situation does not work well at all. Since we are good guys we will most likely be in the reactionary position.

    This all comes down to knowledge, methodology, training, and skill level.......in that order. Most gun guys do not have the two very most important parts of that equation, which is knowledge and methodology. This is where the debate has trouble.......those that know, know without any doubt. Those that do not know......simply "do not know what they do not know."

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array GentlemanJim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    Whether it is a extremely perishable skill all comes down to the methodology that you practice. This is true if you use a conditioned method that works off of fine motor skills, but it not true if you use a natural method working off of gross motor skills.

    Properly structured force on force has shown that stepping and stopping inside of a reactionary situation does not work well at all. Since we are good guys we will most likely be in the reactionary position.

    This all comes down to knowledge, methodology, training, and skill level.......in that order. Most gun guys do not have the two very most important parts of that equation, which is knowledge and methodology. This is where the debate has trouble.......those that know, know without any doubt. Those that do not know......simply "do not know what they do not know."
    Ok, accurate shooting is a perishable skill except when we learn it from you. Got it.

    those that know, know without any doubt. Those that do not know......simply "do not know what they do not know."
    A philosopher huh? What's that got to do with shooting and moving?

    Jim

  12. #26
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Jim, take this for what it is (my findings) I learned to point shoot using gross motor skills and the letting it happen mode. I find it to work and not have to keep on it or lose it. Sure the more I shoot the better I feel and hit but the hits are there even when I find I can not practice for awhile.

    As to the statement "do not know what they do not know." If you have never learned to shoot and make hits using gross motor skills HOW could you possible know what you've never done?

    While I fail at this more than I like at times I do try to keep my thoughts of what will not work to myself till I have at least tried them myself. My thoughts on those who question the difference in shooting with fine motor skill over gross skills most times don't know the difference in the two. Mainly because all they know is the skill of a target shooter and the skill of shooting small groups in the bullseye.

    Those skills (target shooting) and the skills needed for fast accurate combat kill shots, I see as two very different things.


    Just my thoughts most likely will not change a thing in your thinking but I posted it anyway. (Be safe)
    tcox4freedom likes this.
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  13. #27
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    If you're not shootin', you should be loadin'. If you're not loadin', you should be movin' and if you're not movin', somebody's going to cut your head off and put it on a stick. -- Clint Smith
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    Don't try to be fancy. Shoot for the center of mass. The world is full of decent people. Criminals we can do without. -- Jeff Cooper (19202006)

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GentlemanJim View Post
    Ok, accurate shooting is a perishable skill except when we learn it from you. Got it.

    I tend to stay with what has actually been written and find exaggerations to not be conducive to quality discussions. You said "extremely perishable" and from my experience, I absolutely disagree when the correct context of the fight is used with the correct methodology. Natural responses using gross motor skill sets methodology with a handgun has been around since the 1800's and is something that some of the very best gunfighters in history have used to great effect. It is not your usual status quo sight focused target shooting methodology. I am simply stating a fact that this type of training is not "extremely perishable" as you stated. It is also not widely known or taught. Other people teach it beside me and never once did I say that anyone had to learn it from me.

    A philosopher huh? What's that got to do with shooting and moving?

    A philosopher?........not to sure about that!

    But a guy that has actually trained in what I am talking about and trained thousands of other students to do the same.......yeah I am that! I know for a fact that people that "do not know what they do not know" do tend speak from a position that lacks a certain knowledge and experience and when it comes to shooting on the move tend to discuss things outside of their knowledge base.......very much like the article in question.


    Back when I was a "conditioned response guy using fine motor skill sets" we would have been in perfect agreement, but that was 11 years ago and I have moved past the closed mindedness of that dogma. This is a life long journey and the time to stop learning/progressing will be right after I stop breathing.


    Jim
    Everyone is welcome to agree or disagree, but the position that they take should be a position of knowledge and not from the position of lack of knowledge.

  15. #29
    Member Array Archer's Avatar
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    That article isnt really applicable to civilians who carry for defensive purposes.

    Brings this to mind:
    U.S. Soldier Survives Taliban Machine Gun Fire During Firefight - YouTube

  16. #30
    Member Array asldkjfqwoifqwo's Avatar
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    This thread has been something of an eye opener for me. I'll be taking my first tactical handgun course on March 6th and I'm keen to pick up all I can on instinctive shooting.

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