Uugh...Airsoft?

This is a discussion on Uugh...Airsoft? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I still cant believe that Im even raising this question, but I was wondering if any of us here find any value in an airsoft ...

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    Senior Member Array xsigma40cal's Avatar
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    Uugh...Airsoft?

    I still cant believe that Im even raising this question, but I was wondering if any of us here find any value in an airsoft weapon for training purpose's. We all know what happened to ammo prices, luckily I dropped a few zero's on ammo before the scare. I'd rather not have to burn it up for training. This seems like a logical alternative. Im considering the gas blowback type. Any thoughts?
    The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools.--->Herbert Spencer

    Springfield xd 45, Sig Sauer SP2022(9mm),Remington 700(.308), Yugo M10 variant w/IZH Kobra optic,...and lots of ammo for all of 'em.

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  3. #2
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    Airsoft guns can be very helpful in training. Some of the airsoft guns are exact replicas of the real thing. You can get some very good practice with them. I practice with them all the time. good luck
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    Member Array DesignDawg's Avatar
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    http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...archid=2406066
    Common topic. General consensus: yes. Go for it.
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    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    Yep!
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    I use blowback airsoft guns in my garage. They are a fantastic tools.
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    Member Array ZOMBIEvs42's Avatar
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    i use a glock airsoft to teach my kid good fire arm habits, its identical to a g17 or whatever and it reloads with a magazine, blowback operation makes it semi auto, he has a holster for it, and i check to see if its holstered properly, saftey when appropriate, when hes "firing" that he maintains positive muzzle awareness, control, maturity, etc... violations result in the delay of his formal real firearms training.. hes pretty good. :P the only thing he needs to work on is aim.. but then again after about 25 feet the little bbs tend to go where they want..
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    weekend pre-apocolypse nomadic warrior, leather duster and all.

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    Senior Member Array Weeg's Avatar
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    Just remind yourself that what can be cover from airsoft/sim/laser shots may not be cover from the real deal.



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  9. #8
    Member Array rick21's Avatar
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    Yes. The only difference in airsoft and live fire is noise and recoil. At self defense distances the airsoft is more than accurate enough for developing skills.
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  10. #9
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesignDawg View Post
    http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...archid=2406066
    Common topic. General consensus: yes. Go for it.
    Linky no werky!

    Practice shooting defensively with airsoft

    ^ One of the more recent threads.

    I also recently posted the following two posts on one of my local concealed carry Forums:

    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike71
    Sevens, that's awesome. I remember blowing through bbs and co2 carts as fast as i could get them. I was always out of ammo as a kid. Check out the izh 53m. Low power quiet fun. Pyramyd Air out of Cleveland area is hands down the place to shop.

    Brian I have little experience with air soft. Sounds like fun! Does the gear and performance reasonably duplicate shooting a firearm? I know you touched on it, just curious to hear more.
    I wrote a little about airsoft a while back:

    Airsoft is a toy and a game to some.

    I went to airsoft from paintball back in the late '90s/early-'00s as paintball had gotten way too commercial by then: the focus on speedball had taken the game too far from its roots and no longer provided for me the escape that I wanted as a game. Airsoft, on the other hand, was like a live-play video-game. Legality as well as safety are the biggest concerns of airsoft gaming, particularly at the grassroots level - but in more recent years, even the Midwest has seen some really nice commercial airsoft/paintball fields come to the forefront of training (i.e. Steel City Airsoft, PA).

    Airsoft can also be a very valid training tool for some.

    Airsoft can be utilized for Force-on-Force with much less technical expertise and expense than Simunition, lasers, or other types of devices. Yes, there are technical limitations to the "realism" that can be achieved with airsoft, but that can be said for any of the other training tools as well. The use of airsoft in civilian training (I cannot speak to military or law-enforcement, as I have no experience in those areas) dates well back to the 90s, but even today, guys like Travis Haley (I don't think he can be classified as a hardcore Call of Duty gamer :) ) still see it as a valid tool (REF: Travis Haley: Airsoft X Training.mp4 - YouTube - Haley Strategic "Airsoft X Training" video, dated November, 2011). Similarly, it's hard to argue with quantifiable results: Tatsuya Sakai (his YouTube channel ---> ????????MachSakai Channel - YouTube) of Japan won the 2004 Steel Challenge after having only had minimal cross-training with a real-steel firearm directly prior to the competition, beating out some names anyone in the shooting hobby would instantly recognize. And as TKshooter demonstrated, airsoft can also be very effective training tools simply for the average-Joe/Jane at a "DIY" level as well: the replica's relatively low energy output combined with the relative safety of the low-mass plastic BBs means that anything from indoor target practice to self-guided Force-on-Force (Should You Carry A Round In The Chamber? - YouTube <--- that's limalife's examination of the Tueller Drill scenario) can be safely undertaken by common citizens, without the expense and technical knowledge necessary for specialized equipment.

    Like FlyinCedar mentioned, western firearms enthusiasts should realize that in more recent years there's been an influx of airsoft replica accessories that have made its way into the US for the ill purposes of some: specifically, to make a quick buck by deceiving those who do not know better. Clones of virtually any and all popular firearms accessories - from optics to holsters to lights to rails - exist aplenty due to the fact that it is otherwise very, very expensive for our far-eastern counterparts (sadly, due to laws in their native lands, their access to firearms is either forbidden or simply too expensive for "the everyman/woman" to be able to afford) to obtain such items (furthermore, they simply have no need for accessories built to the precision and reliability/durability standards of those that must withstand the recoil and abuse of true firearms use). Back in the early 00s, when VLTOR first stepped onto the scene with their Modstock, I was a very active member of the airsoft community, and I remember speaking with Eric Kincel about his concerns of far-eastern knockoffs and just how fast such items can be cloned and brought to market in mass numbers overseas. Fast forward to today, and you'll see that companies like EOTech even have their own official press releases to help consumers spot clones/fakes - Counterfeit Alert | L-3 EOTech Holographic Weapons Systems . Corrupting the desire of our far-eastern shooting-sports enthusiasts to seek more realism in their re-creation of what they so lust after is both sad and unfortunate, however, it is easy to see why there's an examination of the durability/reliability/performance of airsoft-specific accessories if you can keep in mind their intended use in what is actually a rather physically demanding gaming atmosphere.

    Also, I feel that it is important to point out that not all trainers/instructors feel that airsoft is helpful. Some do not use airsoft as a training tool, and that is just fine, too - there are also those who feel that dry-fire firearms training is a waste of time. It's just personal preferences, and there's many different ways to skin a cat. :)
    Specifically in terms of what you're asking, Mike71, as what I mentioned of Mr. Sakai's success in real-steel competition, it is still important to properly frame the context. At most/at-best, these replicas provide sub-caliber-equivalency training. The hardest that my replicas (and I've got 1911s/2011s - both for skirmish play as well as for BB-IPSC - built by a top "airsmith" in Hong Kong, replicas that cost as much as a real Wilson Combat ) will "kick" only comparably to a .22LR trainer. In terms of manipulations, most of the replicas will not allow for much realism outside of magazine changes: they do not suffer stoppages in the same manner that their real-steel counterparts will. In terms of the trigger, while you can get a very, very nice 1911/2011 airsoft trigger, the rest of the breed suffers from the fact that the replicas do not share the same parts: dry-fire of your actual firearm is still a much better bet, particularly as the airsoft replicas also will not have the same mass distribution as their real-steel counterparts (short of you actually fabricating the parts you need in order to shift the weight balance). Due to the limitations of the typically 0.20 to 0.25 gram 6 mm spherical plastic BBs and the muzzle energy of most replicas, you'll also need to adjust the range and scale of your targets.

    If your goal is recoil mitigation, there are compressed-air recoil-simulators out there that can be a better training tool.

    Similarly, there are also advantages and disadvantages to other training devices such as the RAP4-series of CO2-driven training guns and the laser-based SIRT, or say, fitting a Glock with one of those specific-for-training "resetting triggers" and using a laser-targeting chamber insert.

    What is airsoft good for? It's really good for literally duplicating your firearm for "live fire" training where and when you otherwise cannot. It can also be excellent for Force-on-Force. But it's the absolute context that's going to determine the success (or lack thereof) of your final outcome. :)

    Overall, I think that airsoft is still somewhat misunderstood by the masses of the firearms community simply because it is found in the "toys" isle in places like WalMart and because they see YouTube videos of kids running around in the woods or a deserted building, hosing each other down. Yes, it can be a game - a wonderful, fully-immersive first-person-shooter that will literally beat the pants off any videogame experience now available - but with the right group of participants, with the right mindset and the right setup, it can also be a wonderful real-world training tool that is much more affordable than a military laser setup and more accessible/safer than Simunition.

    That said, it is what it is, and it has its limitations as a training tool. Yes, there's going to be instructors/schools who do not like airsoft because they do not see value in the device - there's also very respected trainers/schools who disapproves of everything from dry-fire drills to the other extreme of shooting high round-counts. That's just individual preferences, and that's a totally valid take. However, there are very concrete reasons for which airsoft may be a very good training tool - or a sub-optimal one.

    and

    Quote Originally Posted by tdeal823
    TsiWrx. Great reply. I did not reed your reply till after I posted. Great links and info. My only confusion is how the green gas system works and how I refill the gun.
    Thank you
    No problem. I'm not Brian D., but I thought I could help. Hope you/he doesn't mind my two-cents, too.

    "Green Gas" is what the Far-Easterners call common propane. The bottles were either intentionally or unintentionally mislabeled - for reasons that none of us knows (but we all know it caused tremendous confusion in the earlier days of airsoft here in the US...I know I was one of the ones duped, as I wrote a bunch of early info. about the various airsoft gasses based on the R22/HCF(C)22/HFC134a/etc., as the way the bottles were labeled, without having had access to independent analysis of the chemistry). This post on the Airsoft Innovations website is very informative ---> Green Gas is Propane | Airsoft Innovations .

    I don't do large-volume airsoft shooting anymore, so I'm happy to simply buy commercial "Green Gas" (compared to my shooting hobby expenditures, it's just a drop in the bucket ) or to pick up "duster gas" (HFC134a), since I still have one of those "duster gas canister" adapter nozzles from the old-days, mainly due to the ease of dispensing (into the replica). If you're going more high-volume shooting, the propane adapter - given how common American household has a large propane tank in-residence - will definitely be worth its minimal cost.

    In terms of how the replica operates, in most cases of "Gas Blow Back" replicas the magazine is the heaviest single component, which is a metal ("pot-metal," as we Americans know it) pressure-vessel that contains the low-pressure liquid-gas propellant. The mechanical cycle is explained well in this old write-up by my friend and noted UK airsoft enthusiast Just Pistols - Just Pistols - Airsoft Terminology - which bases his expo. off of the renowned Western Arms "Magna Blow Back" system of the '90s-early '00s.

    As to how to fill up the magazine, YouTube videos such as these - Airsoft: How to Put Airsoft Gas in a Gun - YouTube - show the technique. I'm old-school, so I just blast away at the magazine until I get "backwash" out of the valve, and I stop. I still have all of my magazines - and they're all perfectly functional - from when I was active in airsoft (starting in '99), so you do the math. Some magazines have the fill-port/nipple exposed, others hide it away under the floor-plate of the magazine, which can be moved out of position to accomplish the fill. Although metal, you'll need to realize that these magazines are first made of "pot metal" that is not nearly as durable as higher-grade metal. Similarly, their weight approaches or exceeds that of a fully-loaded firearms magazine, so a drop to your home's hardwood floor is not recommended, if you want to keep your spouse happy. At the same time, dropping it onto the concrete of the unfinished portion of your basement or your garage is also similarly not advised for fear of damage to the magazine: at costs that typically equal or exceed that of their real counterparts (well, back in the days when you could get a high-capacity Glock magazine for less than $20 ), damage to the pressure-vessel walls will mean that you'd have to obtain a new magazine outright or even try to source appropriate o-ring/gasket seals (not always easy, given that some of the seals are squares/rectangles).

    tdeal823, if you want to practice trigger control, you'd do better either with an established dry-fire regimen or with a dedicated trainer gun that more closely approached or mirrored the trigger of your firearm (i.e. for Glocks, the SIRT or the aftermarket resetting trigger). My airsoft Glock 18C is highly modified, and it nowhere even approaches the trigger feel of my real Glock. Although I've gotta say, the only thing I real difference I noticed when shooting a real Glock 18 on full-auto this summer? recoil. My years of skirmish play with the airsoft G18C prepared me well for the cyclic violence that's the Glock 18.
    Other past threads:

    Airsoft pistols
    Airsoft for Training?
    Realistic training with airsoft?

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array Taurahe's Avatar
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    I think it could be an invaluable training aid if used properly.
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    Your points are shallow... my points are Hollow....

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    Senior Member Array xsigma40cal's Avatar
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    Ok, I'll bite. What are some reputable brands of blowback pistols?
    The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools.--->Herbert Spencer

    Springfield xd 45, Sig Sauer SP2022(9mm),Remington 700(.308), Yugo M10 variant w/IZH Kobra optic,...and lots of ammo for all of 'em.

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    Senior Member Array tubadude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xsigma40cal View Post
    Ok, I'll bite. What are some reputable brands of blowback pistols?

    RedWolf Airsoft - Airsoft Gun (Softair Gun) Retail and Wholesale From Asia

    Anything there. They are my go to shop for airsoft stuff.

    Some people use it as a training aid, I just like to go out into my farmlands and shoot my friends.

  14. #13
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xsigma40cal View Post
    Ok, I'll bite. What are some reputable brands of blowback pistols?
    KWA, WE, KJ Works, HFC, all produce perfectly viable airsoft replicas for training use.

    KSC, Western Arms, Tanaka Works, and Tokyo Marui produce models that are a bit more aesthetically refined.

    These days, it's no longer really necessary to go overseas unless there's a specific item you're seeking (i.e. that you're an airsoft collector/hobbyist). That said, private overseas import of airsoft replicas has never been a problem for me, either - and my history with airsoft goes all the way back to '98 or so - either in terms of the financial transactions or of customs (the longest I had to wait for customs clearance was about two weeks, when they held my custom $2K BB-IPSC for about 3 days for routine examination; I got a call about it from a very nice lady at customs, who said it was the most beautiful replica she'd ever seen ).

    There are now many reputable US-based retailers from whom you can source these replicas.

  15. #14
    Member Array vanagonnuts's Avatar
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    I have a KSC 1911 I bought for this exact reason...

    485229_4409699415177_390028058_n.jpg

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    I had a WE 1911 that was identical to my real one. Good weight and decent recoil. Now, I use a KWA P226 that includes a working decocking lever. It's already cheap, but to make it even cheaper, you can get a propane adapter (just got one recently for $18 on Ebay) and use a standard propane tank from Walmart instead of green gas. It's a great training tool to teach the basics of proper weapons handling techniques, and to practice in your house what you would normally have to use a range for.

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