Drill or Tactics.......?

This is a discussion on Drill or Tactics.......? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So I went to our outdoor range / club yesterday with one of my sons to fire my 30sf and series 70....as we leave the ...

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Thread: Drill or Tactics.......?

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    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    Drill or Tactics.......?

    So I went to our outdoor range / club yesterday with one of my sons to fire my 30sf and series 70....as we leave the practice range...which is where you can train on your own.....this fella dressed in all camo takes our place....he shooting a G17 and starts loading his multitude of mags as were packing up...he has a box of 500 rounds of 9mm and probably a dozen mags....so we stay to watch a bit from our pick-up:

    He starts out by running at the target and fireing continuously...stops.....backs up....runs to the side.....stops.....kneels.....runs back at the target....all the while changing mags, rapid fire and running.
    We watched him do this....obviously a drill of some sort for a while....then we left.

    Made me think......we all are in a defensive posture 99.9999% of the time....this obviously was a very aggressive drill hell bent on destruction of some sort. Anyone ever see or hear of this type of drill either in military or LE practices ?

    The guy was really spittin' lead and movin' like a cat........go figure.
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    Senior Member Array KBSR's Avatar
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    Sounds to me like he was practicing some drills you get in fighting handgun courses and law enforcement tactical courses of fire.

    The fact that we carry our firearms for self defense, doesn't and sure shouldn't mean that when confronted with a threat, that you should remain in a defensive posture. It's NOW a gun fight, and you do what it takes to win. Moving towards the threat while engaging the threat, moving off the X, towards the target and/or cover are all things that may keep you alive.

    Most BG's don't train with their weapon, and for sure they don't regularly practice on moving targets. Moving targets aren't that easy for accomplished/experienced gun fighters. Moving is your friend.

    Be safe.
    " But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... Baa." Col. Dave Grossman on Sheep and Sheepdogs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xXxplosive View Post
    So I went to our outdoor range / club yesterday with one of my sons to fire my 30sf and series 70....as we leave the practice range...which is where you can train on your own.....this fella dressed in all camo takes our place....he shooting a G17 and starts loading his multitude of mags as were packing up...he has a box of 500 rounds of 9mm and probably a dozen mags....so we stay to watch a bit from our pick-up:

    He starts out by running at the target and fireing continuously...stops.....backs up....runs to the side.....stops.....kneels.....runs back at the target....all the while changing mags, rapid fire and running.
    We watched him do this....obviously a drill of some sort for a while....then we left.

    Made me think......we all are in a defensive posture 99.9999% of the time....this obviously was a very aggressive drill hell bent on destruction of some sort. Anyone ever see or hear of this type of drill either in military or LE practices ?

    The guy was really spittin' lead and movin' like a cat........go figure.
    Some variation on the exercise you described has been a part of every tactical gun course I have ever taken.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

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    Member Array slidewayz240's Avatar
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    All the time, Ive done all of the above mentioned drills in my military career. And I practice in my off time the exact same tactics and then some as well as teaching my wife to be aggressive. Meet force with equal or greater force and overwhelm the opposition with such suppressive firepower they will reconsider there whole life's choices. My parents didnt raise a womans reproductive organ.

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    If you are standing there in one place and taking nice careful two handed hold shots at a stationary paper target then what you doing is called "recreational target shooting."
    If you are doing that and even if your paper target is a man outline silhouette then all that you have really done is switch from a bulls-eye target to one of a different configuration. It is still recreational target shooting.
    You are not shooting or practicing live threat self-defensive shooting.
    The two genre are only barely related to one another if at all.
    Just my personal opinion on that.
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    The timely application of overwhelming counter-violence is, in my opinion, the proper response to a violent encounter. With that in mind, I train in those actions, movements and techniques that I believe will keep me (and others) alive. Shooting on the move, from various positions, from cover and from concealment are the basics that we all need to be able to do.

    You don't have to be a high-speed low-drag operator to gain these skills. I certainly am not. However, I don't want to have to figure out how best to move from concealment to cover while on the street. I want to know EXACTLY how my hands, feet and senses will work together BEFORE I have to move on an BG.

    The more realistic I can make my training, the more likely it is that I will survive the real thing.
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    I should add that folks shot not begin shooting using advanced self defense shooting methods unless they at least start out by going for some initial qualified instruction.
    In the meantime (on the home front) place all of your ammunition in another room - check your firearm for a cleared chamber and practice your draw & presentation and become as familiar with the mechanics of your carry firearm as possible.
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    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    I was taught THIS order of priorities: MINDSET, TACTICS, SKILL (drill), GEAR

    To answer the OP's initial question...I believe TACTICS should be developed first. While working on the TACTICS, you can always hone your SKILLs (drill).

    i.e. Know you are probably going to have to MOVE. How ill you move? Left, right, forward, backward, diagonally? Will you always be on your feet? Will you ever need to go to a knee, prone, back, etc? What situations will require these movements and are you prepared tactically to utilize all these scenarios? Now, once you are utilizing the scenarios, do you have the ability to hit your target lethally? Do you "drill" enough to be on target utilizing these scenarios?

    JMO
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

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    Senior Member Array cn262's Avatar
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    I participated in my first force on force training yesterday. All of my training and practice to date has had a defensive focus - still a reasonable assumption for concealed carry permit / license holders. What I quickly (and somewhat painfully) learned was that you can't just be defensive if the other person / people are being aggressive and persistent. There are times when you may need to be more aggressive (e.g., backed into an alley with nowhere to go).

    I'm no expert on this by any means, but it was a great experience that quickly taught me that defensive practice is a great thing (especially movement and finding cover), but there are times when something more or different is needed. It's kind of funny because once you try / do this it makes perfect sense. It also goes to show that you can never stop learning and improving.

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    I have done many of the same type of drills in my Gunfighting Courses I have taken in the last 3 years. Movement and the ability to get my gun on the target is critical to success and not getting hit. F-O-F is a very good way to practice this. I do my drills in my garage with the door closed with an Air Soft gun and cardboard targets on the wall. I am not able to do this at my membership range. Getting off the X and getting bullets into the BG is what counts any way you can do it.
    Praise the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle --- Psalm 144
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    Senior Member Array Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner71 View Post
    The timely application of overwhelming counter-violence is, in my opinion, the proper response to a violent encounter. With that in mind, I train in those actions, movements and techniques that I believe will keep me (and others) alive. Shooting on the move, from various positions, from cover and from concealment are the basics that we all need to be able to do.
    I agree. I have practiced movement drills regularly in various advanced courses and find them excellent. Under the right circumstances advancing on a BG may be the best move if for no other reason it will surprise him, break that OODA loop. And I also agree that once you have made the decision to engage, you must do so with overwhelming aggressiveness and force.
    Best way to win a gun fight? "That's easy, don't show up."
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    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything."
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