Sights are not as important as they used to be

This is a discussion on Sights are not as important as they used to be within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I used to make a big deal about sights on a handgun. Recently I had the opportunity to take Roger Phillips' (Suarez International) Point Shooting ...

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Thread: Sights are not as important as they used to be

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    Member Array HandgunWorld's Avatar
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    Sights are not as important as they used to be

    I used to make a big deal about sights on a handgun. Recently I had the opportunity to take Roger Phillips' (Suarez International) Point Shooting Progressions class. What I walked away with is the knowledge that in a reactive gunfight, it's definitely possible to make good hits at up to 11 yards if you're skilled and trained in the art of point shooting.

    I know, it's a bad word and many instructors criticize the skill, some go as far as call it a fraud. There are many ways to accurately aim handgun at typical handgun distances and make good hits. By learning to drive your gun to the focal point or using the slide or corners of the slide as an index, it really works.

    I think this is a must class for anyone serious about defending themselves with a handgun.

    Here's what one student had to say...

    "Roger is in another class. Knowledge, charisma, enthusiasm, storytelling are all an integral part of the learning environment and Roger brings that. Not only does Roger explain in detail the mechanics of the drill but situations that may dictate a technique. Along the way the integration of previous drills, grips, stances, presentations, etc., are built upon as the class moves forward. As everyone always says there is so much information provided in the 16 hours that you simply cannot take it all in or drill enough to work out the bugs. But at PSP I did learn about a great glock-esque airsoft pistol to use in the backyard and/or garage to continue working on the lessons learned at home. This class exposed many of my weaknesses, the spacial reality of a gun fight and what I need to improve. This IS a must take class for anyone on the fence. And just for a bit of levity, my front sight came loose just before noon Sunday and I ran the rest of the class with the sight removed. While it was off I shot just as well, if not better. If that is not a testament to point shooting, I am not sure what is! Also it was nice to not be the youngest one there for a change! At 30 not many of my friends take self defense training seriously and waste money on new guns or other toys. Hopefully the skills learned in PSP will challenge their beliefs."

    _________________________

    I'll be doing a podcast review on my experience soon and post a link to it.
    Last edited by HandgunWorld; April 13th, 2013 at 01:07 AM.
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    I couldn't agree more...point shooting is probably how it will happen in a Wally World parking lot.
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    VIP Member Array Doghandler's Avatar
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    or the threshold of the entrance to your home.
    There is a solution but we are not Jedi... not yet.
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    I learned point shooting back in 1970 using the old Applegate system as used in the OSS with some modifications and used it in Vietnam where the Army called it Quick Kill shooting. I keep trying to convince the local range paper shooters that what they practice at the range will not help much in a real gun fight and may actually prove dangerous because the time it takes most to get into a proper stance, aim and fire, is longer than it would take someone at 7 yards to reach and stab them and that is starting off with a gun in hand. I was shocked to find that most never practiced drawing and shooting, even just drawing in their homes. Heck, my cousin has been pocket carrying and did not even know he could not draw while seated until I told him to try to make my point. He bought a belt holster the next day. :) I keep trying to get him to practice point shooting and also shooting faster than one shot per every few seconds. For some reason many people think they will see danger well ahead of time and be able to prepare for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old_Dog View Post
    I learned point shooting back in 1970 using the old Applegate system as used in the OSS with some modifications and used it in Vietnam where the Army called it Quick Kill shooting. I keep trying to convince the local range paper shooters that what they practice at the range will not help much in a real gun fight and may actually prove dangerous because the time it takes most to get into a proper stance, aim and fire, is longer than it would take someone at 7 yards to reach and stab them and that is starting off with a gun in hand. I was shocked to find that most never practiced drawing and shooting, even just drawing in their homes. Heck, my cousin has been pocket carrying and did not even know he could not draw while seated until I told him to try to make my point. He bought a belt holster the next day. :) I keep trying to get him to practice point shooting and also shooting faster than one shot per every few seconds. For some reason many people think they will see danger well ahead of time and be able to prepare for it.
    I gave up faith in God a long time ago. I just walk around it these days.
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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    PSP and Roger were my eye opening moment for what is needed and will be a gunfight. I have heard many say Roger teachings and point shooting are a fraud. But I have never heard anyone not say WOW after taking his class. My thoughts are he's opened many a eye on not knowing what one does not know.

    I am proud to call him my friend.
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    I was talking to my friend, a local LEO, recently and he said that his department had all gone to Point Shooting classes. He even went so far as to buy a gun without sights for his EDC (I can't remember what brand). Lets face it, when the SHTF and the adrenalin rush is on, sights are of little value.
    "Do not go to stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things at stupid times. - Gabe Suarez

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    I realized very soon that bad guys will not wait for me to perfectly align my sights.
    -PEF, a Framer with a Steelie...
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    1. All guns are always loaded.
    2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
    3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
    4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Point shooting defintley has its place, and should be practiced as from the draw. This is IMO a much more sound training principal than some of the other " tactics" out there.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    I have carried snubs for years. I put the big dot on the front of them an have practiced point an shoot for years. Always assumed when i needed my gun it would be up close an personal. If you haven't tried the big dot you should you don't even realize you use it but it is so easy to point an shoot an still see it.

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    Speaking strictly from experience.

    None of this is new.
    Point shooting as it's called here works.
    Putting the front sight on the adversary without lining up with the rear sight works.
    Carefully lining up both sites on the adversary works.

    I refuse to get caught up in one instructor or anothers dogma. Every instructor has valuable information. But none of them can walk on water.

    I'm no instructor. I have my own advice that I share.
    Get professional training.
    Do individual training.
    Practice.
    Practice some more.
    Stop worrying. Your going to do fine.
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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    No, its not new. Years ago the Daisy BB gun company produced a BB gun sans sights complete with a US Army instructional on point shooting techniques. IIRC, it also came with safety glasses and a target disc for aerial shooting, it was produced under the name " Quick Skill".

    Back in the day, I was raised on the knowledge of Lucky McDaniels book called "Quick kill", a guide to point shooting.

    This is old school technique that has been regurgitated and pawned off lately as a new concept, when actually it was used by legendary gun fighters such as Bill Jordan.

    Dont follow the "new". Look back to the old school pioneers who have actually developed and used this stuff in real application and didnt just talk about it.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    I agree. In a real situation, using the sights may not be possible, either because of the terrain or the speed of the conflict. It's good to have an instinctive knowledge of where the muzzle is pointing and where the shot will go.

    Thanks for your podcast. I've been listening for a few months and have gone back through many of the older ones. Great stuff!
    Life is about service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    No, its not new. Years ago the Daisy BB gun company produced a BB gun sans sights complete with a US Army instructional on point shooting techniques. IIRC, it also came with safety glasses and a target disc for aerial shooting, it was produced under the name " Quick Skill".

    Back in the day, I was raised on the knowledge of Lucky McDaniels book called "Quick kill", a guide to point shooting.

    This is old school technique that has been regurgitated and pawned off lately as a new concept, when actually it was used by legendary gun fighters such as Bill Jordan.

    Dont follow the "new". Look back to the old school pioneers who have actually developed and used this stuff in real application and didnt just talk about it.
    Amen, an unqualified opinion is of less value to me than a qualified one.
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    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    In my opinion,
    Sights are as important as they ever were.
    Point shooting is as important as it ever was.
    New skills, when realized and practiced, sometimes seem more important because they are new and novel.
    I'll bet you even Roger Phillips would tell you to use your sights if you have time, distance, and opportunity.
    He's just very good at teaching you how to 'not use' them when time, distance, and opportunity don't allow it.

    dan
    Last edited by jdsumner; April 13th, 2013 at 12:03 PM. Reason: qualifying statement as MY OPINION

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