Is gun training a liability in court when defending a personal defense shooting?

Is gun training a liability in court when defending a personal defense shooting?

This is a discussion on Is gun training a liability in court when defending a personal defense shooting? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Real Title: JOHN BOCH: Is gun training a liability in court? GunsSaveLive.com April 23, 2013 by John Boch Are you worried that training or competition ...

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    Is gun training a liability in court when defending a personal defense shooting?

    Real Title: JOHN BOCH: Is gun training a liability in court?
    GunsSaveLive.com
    April 23, 2013
    by John Boch

    Are you worried that training or competition experience will be used against you following a personal defense shooting incident? If so, you’re not alone

    ......Experienced criminal defense lawyers and others will argue that good, top-tier training will make you a great deal more defensible in court, not less.

    You need look no further than your local police agencies for guidance. Law enforcement officers receive ongoing training on a regular basis that is all carefully documented. If the officers act to the standard by which they will be judged – and have been trained – then they generally have little to worry about in terms of criminal prosecution or civil liability.

    The same applies to you, the civilian.

    ......All training isn’t equal though! Your coursework, and class notes from training will be discoverable by the prosecution, as will any YouTube videos of your training or competition.

    Did you not have live-fire at your so-called “firearms training class?” Did your live-fire consist of five shots or several hours of range time with lots of shooting exercises? Did your instructor cut corners from the minimal requirements or did they supplement the requirements with other defensible teaching material?

    Which of the above do you think would benefit your criminal or civil defense and which might more likely be a liability than an asset?

    JOHN BOCH: Is gun training a liability in court? | GunsSaveLife.com
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    Senior Member Array Gaius's Avatar
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    This is a recurrent issue brought up in legal and firearms training seminars. I agree with Mass Ayoob (usually a safe thing to do) that more and better training makes for a better defense at trial. The reality of the legal system, however, is that a good prosecutor will take any set of facts and turn them into an accusatory presentation. Too little training, "and the Defendant takes it upon himself to carry a deadly, life ending weapon, and with almost no training, kills the poor victim." A lot of training? "and the Defendant takes it upon himself to carry a deadly, life ending weapon, and has taken many classes solely designed to show him how to kill his fellow man. Is it a wonder that he did so his first opportunity?"

    From a legal perspective, the more training, of a quality type, the better off you will be if in fact you must use deadly force.
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    Your damned if you do...damned if you don't...but either way at least your alive.
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    I'd rather be well trained and defending my actions in court than poorly trained laying in a box.
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    If being better trained can show the intention and achievement of improved safety, improved accuracy, improved knowledge of lawful actions, and all the rest, I can't imagine how it could ever be successfully portrayed as a detriment, let alone a threat to others. Quite simply, that's not what appropriate training is about.

    Now, that said, if the only so-called "training" I've got is (a) shooting with my homeys, (b) multiple sessions with Bubba's Commando Excursions, and (c) I'm involved in a questionable situation, then I can see how it might be an additional "nail in the coffin," so to speak.
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    It is the prosecutors job to use anything you have ever said, done, looked at, thought of, been told ,you name it, to make you look like a trained or untrained killer. The defense will use the same facts to try to prove the opposite. In the end whoever does the best job convincing a clueless jury, wins.
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    Senior Member Array Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exacto View Post
    It is the prosecutors job to use anything you have ever said, done, looked at, thought of, been told ,you name it, to make you look like a trained or untrained killer. The defense will use the same facts to try to prove the opposite. In the end whoever does the best job convincing a clueless jury, wins.
    Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. It seems that in the "good old days" the duty of the prosecutor was to see that justice was done, not to simply get a conviction at any price. Remember the old 1950s westerns? The Lone Ranger would say to the suspect, "if you are innocent, you have nothing to fear." Presuming that that was ever true, in my experience it is not all that true today.
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    Lack of training is a much greater liability in a lethal force encounter. I'll take knowledge and training over ignorance and luck any day.
    ccw9mm and TX expat like this.
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    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ANGLICO View Post
    ......Experienced criminal defense lawyers and others will argue that good, top-tier training will make you a great deal more defensible in court, not less.
    First I don't want a "criminal defense" attorney! They only work with criminals and do not understand defending a innocent person! They don't teach the concept of "Self Defense" in law school!

    JMHO but you need both handgun skills and legal skills! Legal Skills? That is the only reason I took the MAG-40 class two times!

    Again JMHO!


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    Senior Member Array Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onacoma View Post
    First I don't want a "criminal defense" attorney! They only work with criminals and do not understand defending a innocent person! They don't teach the concept of "Self Defense" in law school!

    JMHO but you need both handgun skills and legal skills! Legal Skills? That is the only reason I took the MAG-40 class two times!

    Again JMHO!
    Just out of curiosity, if you are criminally charged, and presume even wrongfully, exactly who do you want to represent you in navigating through the criminal justice system? BYT, self defense is taught in Criminal Law courses in law school. One could debate how extensively it is covered (not very), but nevertheless, in taking Crim Law in law school, it is discussed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by onacoma View Post
    First I don't want a "criminal defense" attorney! They only work with criminals and do not understand defending a innocent person! They don't teach the concept of "Self Defense" in law school!

    JMHO but you need both handgun skills and legal skills! Legal Skills? That is the only reason I took the MAG-40 class two times!

    Again JMHO!
    If I were to find myself in criminal court over a self defense shooting, I sure as hell want a criminal defense attorney.

    Edit:

    They only work with criminals and do not understand defending a innocent person
    Are you being serious about this? I sure hope not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by onacoma View Post
    First I don't want a "criminal defense" attorney! They only work with criminals and do not understand defending a innocent person! They don't teach the concept of "Self Defense" in law school!
    As with any criminal defense attempt, I would think the most-appropriate attorney is going to be the one with specific competencies and experience successfully defending the type of case in question.

    In this case, it would be experience and success with defending self-defense cases. Ideally, too, the right person selected would also have a solid grounding in all aspects of the use-of-force statutes, realities of violent attacks and defensive situations, realities of lawful weaponry employed and the truths behind their effectiveness and weaknesses, etc.
    Rock and Glock likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by onacoma View Post
    First I don't want a "criminal defense" attorney! They only work with criminals and do not understand defending a innocent person! They don't teach the concept of "Self Defense" in law school!

    JMHO but you need both handgun skills and legal skills! Legal Skills? That is the only reason I took the MAG-40 class two times!

    Again JMHO!
    "A lawyer that defends himself has a fool for a client."

    Let the lawyer do his or her job should you ever need one. Just sayin'.
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    I often wonder about these theories - Using "SD ammo," reloading you own "deadly bullets," and now this.

    Are there any documented cases in which such evidence was used to convict (or exonerate) the defendant? Not even sure some of this stuff would be relevant and therefore admissible.

    I'd like to see the cases that focus on such evidence in the record. I've a feeling we're ghost hunting.
    -PEF, a Framer with a Steelie...
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    1. All guns are always loaded.
    2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
    3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
    4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

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    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEF View Post
    I often wonder about these theories - Using "SD ammo," reloading you own "deadly bullets," and now this.

    Are there any documented cases in which such evidence was used to convict (or exonerate) the defendant? Not even sure some of this stuff would be relevant and therefore admissible.

    I'd like to see the cases that focus on such evidence in the record. I've a feeling we're ghost hunting.
    Take a mag-40 class from Massad Ayoob and you'll have 20 or more pages of examples! Take the class in Live Oak, FL!


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