Things Instructors, Experts, and Goo Roos have told you/taught you that fail

Things Instructors, Experts, and Goo Roos have told you/taught you that fail

This is a discussion on Things Instructors, Experts, and Goo Roos have told you/taught you that fail within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Obviously it's the internet and there is just as much bad info as good info, and both tend to get repeated. I haven't taken a ...

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Thread: Things Instructors, Experts, and Goo Roos have told you/taught you that fail

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    VIP Member Array Jaeger's Avatar
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    Things Instructors, Experts, and Goo Roos have told you/taught you that fail

    Obviously it's the internet and there is just as much bad info as good info, and both tend to get repeated.

    I haven't taken a class or anything like that in probably 20 years before my CCW class. The guy was an NRA instructor, and a state CCW instructor (maybe the same thing in Missouri).

    There is one thing he said that really caught my attention as being something I consider wrong, and maybe even a little dangerous. It wasn't something like a 1911 is a great revolver, or hot loading ammo is always a good defensive idea, but it stuck in my craw, and I haven't been able to shake it.

    He said something to the effect of, and this is an imprecise quote, "When you carry you will see the world differently, interpret the world differently, and you will feel differently." To me this is horse manure. If wearing a firearm changes you more than a little, you probably should not be carrying a firearm. You shouldn't feel like you are more powerful than you were. You shouldn't feel like there are more threats to your person than there were. And, you shouldn't create some new paradigm with the way you interact with the rest of the world and all the people in it. To me this smacks of some kind of compensation for feelings of inadequacy, and I think that's a poor mixer for pistols and is liable to get people hurt and people in trouble.

    I would have said, "A pistol is just a tool. It should change you no more than putting on any other tool belt that has a hammer hanging from it. It simply gives you options you don't have in it's absence." If carrying changes your life more than simply dealing with the hassle of having a pistol on your person, and it changes the way you behave (other than the prerequisite safety concerns and greater attention to the laws governing its use) you need counseling, and not a CCW.

    I know a guy who got a CCW very early when it was legalized, and it did change him. He ended up loosing it for brandishing. They took his pistol, didn't give it back, and when he went to get another one he didn't pass the background check. Not sure how all that works out, but everyone who knows him breathed a sigh of relief that this person, who had no criminal record, and certainly was legitimate to carry, isn't anymore. Carrying changed him, and that's your first indicator that it's not a good idea in my opinion...


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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaeger View Post
    He said something to the effect of, and this is an imprecise quote, "When you carry you will see the world differently, interpret the world differently, and you will feel differently." To me this is horse manure. If wearing a firearm changes you more than a little, you probably should not be carrying a firearm. You shouldn't feel like you are more powerful than you were. You shouldn't feel like there are more threats to your person than there were. And, you shouldn't create some new paradigm with the way you interact with the rest of the world and all the people in it. To me this smacks of some kind of compensation for feelings of inadequacy, and I think that's a poor mixer for pistols and is liable to get people hurt and people in trouble.
    +10000
    I think some folks that carry guns try to build a mystique around them.. Many feel that it is special to carry a gun and that they carry a great responisbility. I think many feel pompous and that they are better than others, using the word "sheep", "sheepeeple" and "anti". I also see often how HARD it is to get a CCP or CHL and that in some ways makes them a better person. It is harder to buy a house or get credit than it is to get a CHL or CCP.

    A gun is a tool. Before you ever leave your house with it you should have thought abuot the world around you and how you act. If you use to go to stupid places and do stupid things before, did you really need to have a gun and the responisbility that comes with it to stop going to stupid place and doing stupid things.

    Do you know what changed the first time I carried concealed? Nothing except I had to buy pants with a larger waist.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

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    VIP Member Array StormRhydr's Avatar
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    I wasnt there when the guy you describe said what he did. Infliction, judging the person, all go into making a determination about what they say.

    So saying; I agree with him. For none of the reasons you suggest, btw.

    Perhaps one should have things all thought out beforehand, but life generally doesnt work that way. As a matter of fact, I will quote Søren Kierkegaard, on this one: “Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.”

    Why I agree with that guy is because all of a sudden you start to very seriously consider when you might draw, and when you might shoot. That just because you were able, do you really want to shoot someone over your wallet?

    Now if your guy meant you "will feel like superman!" and "you got the power now, bucko!!", well the heck with that, I agree with you. If he meant you would need to do some sober reflection, well I agree with that.
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    VIP Member Array OutWestSystems's Avatar
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    The one thing that I hear often that kind of gets on my nerves is; "You should learn using a .22". I have a few issues it. I always felt you should learn with what you are planing on using, train with what you carry. The other reason I have an issue with a .22 for learning is that it missing out on the "drama" of shooting. You are throwing .22 rounds down range and it can feel like you are not doing much more than shooting an airsoft. But as all of we know a .22 can kill someone very well. I like to teach people first about the "lethality" of the firearm early in the teaching process because every time you pull that trigger you own that bullet no matter where it ends up. If you don't understand the lethality of that it can lead to a more relaxed attitude when handling the firearm than there should be.

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaeger View Post
    Obviously it's the internet and there is just as much bad info as good info, and both tend to get repeated.

    I haven't taken a class or anything like that in probably 20 years before my CCW class. The guy was an NRA instructor, and a state CCW instructor (maybe the same thing in Missouri).

    There is one thing he said that really caught my attention as being something I consider wrong, and maybe even a little dangerous. It wasn't something like a 1911 is a great revolver, or hot loading ammo is always a good defensive idea, but it stuck in my craw, and I haven't been able to shake it.

    He said something to the effect of, and this is an imprecise quote, "When you carry you will see the world differently, interpret the world differently, and you will feel differently." To me this is horse manure. If wearing a firearm changes you more than a little, you probably should not be carrying a firearm. You shouldn't feel like you are more powerful than you were. You shouldn't feel like there are more threats to your person than there were. And, you shouldn't create some new paradigm with the way you interact with the rest of the world and all the people in it. To me this smacks of some kind of compensation for feelings of inadequacy, and I think that's a poor mixer for pistols and is liable to get people hurt and people in trouble.

    I would have said, "A pistol is just a tool. It should change you no more than putting on any other tool belt that has a hammer hanging from it. It simply gives you options you don't have in it's absence." If carrying changes your life more than simply dealing with the hassle of having a pistol on your person, and it changes the way you behave (other than the prerequisite safety concerns and greater attention to the laws governing its use) you need counseling, and not a CCW.

    I know a guy who got a CCW very early when it was legalized, and it did change him. He ended up loosing it for brandishing. They took his pistol, didn't give it back, and when he went to get another one he didn't pass the background check. Not sure how all that works out, but everyone who knows him breathed a sigh of relief that this person, who had no criminal record, and certainly was legitimate to carry, isn't anymore. Carrying changed him, and that's your first indicator that it's not a good idea in my opinion...
    It could be the direct opposite of what you are thinking. It could mean being more humble, turning the other cheek, Improved SA, not taking everything to the mate. For some it is a change, and a change for the better. That is just my thought on that statement.
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    VIP Member Array StormRhydr's Avatar
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    Im one of those who advise practice with .22s. Today there are lots of reasons for doing so, but much of mine is old school training. People can afford to actually shoot enough .22s to become good marksman. If its rifle training, I suggest a .22 bolt action. For pistol, an M&P .22, or conversion kit for a glock 19, which I feel is the best choice of all. That way they have one gun that will do both, and shoot often and heavy enough with it, with very little cross over problems.

    I certainly agree with you about the lethality of a .22. Any gun can kill you. Heck, for hog killings they use .22 shorts to put the hog down.

    Saying all that, I think we think of different things. I think of structured training with .22s, and in your mind perhaps you see a bunch of kids out with high cap mags in their 10/22s just firing them off with abandon ...like its play. I dont hold with that, either.

    I think way too many go the latter route instead of learning the fundamentals.
    Quote Originally Posted by OutWestSystems View Post
    The one thing that I hear often that kind of gets on my nerves is; "You should learn using a .22". I have a few issues it. I always felt you should learn with what you are planing on using, train with what you carry. The other reason I have an issue with a .22 for learning is that it missing out on the "drama" of shooting. You are throwing .22 rounds down range and it can feel like you are not doing much more than shooting an airsoft. But as all of we know a .22 can kill someone very well. I like to teach people first about the "lethality" of the firearm early in the teaching process because every time you pull that trigger you own that bullet no matter where it ends up. If you don't understand the lethality of that it can lead to a more relaxed attitude when handling the firearm than there should be.

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    Distinguished Member Array Lotus222's Avatar
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    When you sit back and realize how helpless you would be if you were thrust into a situation where you needed a firearm and didn't have one... Yeah, that can change your mindset. Usually, people can't understand that until they have actually carried. I think it is an eye opener to no longer be nearly as helpless and have greater control over potential out-of-control situations.
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    VIP Member Array OutWestSystems's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StormRhydr View Post
    Im one of those who advise practice with .22s.
    I am all for practicing with .22s. Cheaper and gives you that needed trigger time, what I don't like is people learning to shoot with a .22.

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    VIP Member Array rammerjammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    It could be the direct opposite of what you are thinking. It could mean being more humble, turning the other cheek, Improved SA, not taking everything to the mate. For some it is a change, and a change for the better. That is just my thought on that statement.
    That's how I interpret it.
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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    It could be the direct opposite of what you are thinking. It could mean being more humble, turning the other cheek, Improved SA, not taking everything to the mate. For some it is a change, and a change for the better. That is just my thought on that statement.
    Quote Originally Posted by rammerjammer View Post
    That's how I interpret it.
    Do you guys feel different and act different if you are unarmed? I act the exact same, do the same things, and treat folks the same. My SA is the same as well as my demeanor. That is why I disagree with the statement...I understand the concept behind it...just disagree....would you have expected anything else Harryball
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

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    The instructor for my Utah class - "You will be issued a Utah Concealed Firearm Permit, not Firearms Permit. You will only be able to carry one."

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Do you guys feel different and act different if you are unarmed? I act the exact same, do the same things, and treat folks the same. My SA is the same as well as my demeanor. That is why I disagree with the statement...I understand the concept behind it...just disagree....would you have expected anything else Harryball
    To be honest suntzu, I wouldnt expect anything less. I see to many people being all gun ho about getting a permit and carrying a gun. In my classes we try to stress the responsibility that comes with carrying along with de-escalation, not to invoke another and so forth. So I guess in a way I practice what I preach....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    VIP Member Array Jaeger's Avatar
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    Why I agree with that guy is because all of a sudden you start to very seriously consider when you might draw, and when you might shoot. That just because you were able, do you really want to shoot someone over your wallet?
    Of course, but why would any of that CHANGE YOU. There is no question you are assuming more responsibility when you carry a pistol, and that part of that is knowing the laws governing it's use, and thinking about when you should and shouldn't, but none of that should change you, who you are, and how you meet the world, except for the chance that you need it to defend yourself, which for most of us is a remote possibility...

    It could be the direct opposite of what you are thinking. It could mean being more humble, turning the other cheek, Improved SA, not taking everything to the mate. For some it is a change, and a change for the better. That is just my thought on that statement.
    It could. I didn't take it that way, and neither did the three other guys I went to the class with, but it's possible we all misinterpreted it. I'm eye to eye with suntzu on this. If that's what he meant he should have fleshed it out, or he could have just said "think differently" or deeply, without implying that it would change everything about you. Go to Erhard seminars, or whatever, if you want to change who you are and how you approach life, don't start carrying a pistol.

    Was he wrong Stoveman? He'd be wrong in Missourah!

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    Distinguished Member Array Oldpsufan's Avatar
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    I think having a CCW does change your way of thinking. It increased my SA even when I am not carrying. I never drove with my doors locked, never was aware of the escape distance in front of me at a red light. The only reason I carry is if I feel I will be in a harmful situation in a place I'm uncomfortable being in. I do not carry much in my quiet local area, I do not carry around my house although I do have two guns loaded at all times in my house. Just being on this forum has taught me more about SA and how it should be viewed without paranoia.

    I just got back from a week's vacation in Virginia Beach. I took my gun along unloaded locked in a gun case in the trunk because I had to drive through Maryland. I put the whole locked up assembly in a dresser drawer and never did carry it anywhere down there. The reason being is that I felt safe in the places we went to. If it would be nighttime at those places I would have carried. I will probably get reprimanded from the hardcore carriers here, but that's just the way I think and that's why I'm saying how a CCW changed me.
    “A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
    ― Edward R. Murrow
    After all, when the Supreme Court twice comes within one vote of ruling that the Second Amendment of the U.S. Bill of Rights isn’t an individual right, Americans have a right to be concerned.

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    Ex Member Array Manderinobyebye's Avatar
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    I don't think i've changed,since,i've had mine.Obviously,i do feel safer.I'm the same with or without it.The last thing,i want to do,is to do something really stupid,and end up losing my rights to carry.I believe as i've got older,some things that use to bother me,just doesn't any more.

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