The newest issue of Force Science News (#239) from Force Science Institute

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Thread: The newest issue of Force Science News (#239) from Force Science Institute

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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    The newest issue of Force Science News (#239) from Force Science Institute

    Now here is the new training methods FSI and others will be teaching their students in the near future, only it was being taught for years,I learned it in 07. But some just have to have Science confirmation before they can let their students know the best training for staying alive

    Hey maybe I am bias but I do think one should know just what they are getting from their instructors. I like my life enough to find the best ways of staying alive. Yes some may not like Gabe but his training is years ahead of what I seen others teaching. I've been there long enough to see him come up with things of new and years later everyone is talking about how good it is that THEY just found and thought of.

    Movement is much more than stepping to the side or backpedaling.


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    Interesting Reading
    Got this from a corespondent on Warrior Talk:

    Force Science Institute confirms Suarez approach

    The newest issue of Force Science News (#239) from Force Science Institute (not available yet on their website, but should be soon) confirms much of the basis for the Suarez approach to interpersonal ballistic mediation. A few highlights:

    Sprinting forward is fast and backpedaling is slow:

    Stride length. Sprinting straight forward from a starting position, the average subject (let's say a suspect charging toward an officer) covers more than 3 feet in his first stride. His third step stretches out to more than 4 feet, and by his sixth stride he's closing distance at more than 5 feet per stride.

    Back-peddling from a starting position (as a startled officer might do in trying to escape an attack), the average first step is barely 2 feet and doesn't reach 3 feet even after 6 strides.

    Step time. The average forward sprinter takes a first step in about a third of a second and follows with subsequent steps about every quarter-second. He can propel himself through 6 strides in slightly more than a second and a half, the researchers found.

    Stride velocity. By the time he hits his fifth stride, he's sprinting at just over 13 mph. "A back-peddler--if he hasn't already fallen by then--is nowhere close to that speed," Lewinski says. "Civilians can move really quickly in launching an assault, and true to form, a reacting officer is at a marked disadvantage, especially in trying to escape backwards."

    The takeoff works (although they didn't test angles):

    Backward step. Researchers found that subjects who first took a quick backward step with their dominant leg and pushed off from there when turning to sprint to the side were generally able to generate more power and force, thus increasing their acceleration for short distances. This could have implications, Lewinski says, for officers trying to get out of the way of an approaching threat, such as a speeding vehicle.

    Conventional approaches may need to be re-thunk:

    • "Our findings show that a suspect standing 9 feet from an officer can charge at him and be close enough to reach out and slash him with an edged weapon in just over half a second. Starting just 5 feet away, a determined offender can be stabbing an officer with his extended arm in a third of a second," Lewinski says. "What does this do to the traditional thinking about a reactionary gap and about a preemptive use of force?"

    • "Given the documented slowness of back-peddling, are officers being trained to make--and practice--well-timed and well-coordinated J turns and L moves as escape tactics?"

    • "Understanding that suspects may flee and shoot back at the same time, are officers practicing shooting at targets that are moving away from them at some angle as fast as this study shows an average attacker can sprint, perhaps up to 13-15 mph?"

    • "Do they understand and practice what they need in terms of time and stride distance to move out of the way of an oncoming vehicle that a suspect is deliberately driving toward them? Given our clearer understanding of the relationship between time, distance to be covered and proximity of an officer to a vehicle it is now more feasible to train officers to accurately evaluate the degree of risk posed by an oncoming vehicle and to help them determine whether getting out of the way is a safe, reasonable option or whether shooting to stop or divert the driver is the only necessary course of action given the circumstances.

    • "Are investigators and force reviewers prepared to consider the speed with which offenders can attack from relatively short distances when analyzing an officer's defensive actions?"

    • "Likewise, can departmental spokespersons use this information appropriately in public to explain uses of force that might otherwise seem questionable.

    Imagine that! Suarez International was doing this way back in 2005. About time the Law Enforcement Community got the word...even eight years later
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

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    Imagine that! Suarez International was doing this way back in 2005. About time the Law Enforcement Community got the word...even eight years later

    A book could be written on materials he's "borrowed" from other instructors.
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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    All I can say is since my finding SI I've seen things talked about and done there that much later becomes the great new thing and never have I seen anything mentioned about SI using it earlier. So if others know about it why is it not being taught.

    For me I'll go where I see training that will give me the best advantage of going home after the situation is over. Most training schools videos and adds don't give much hope of their doing that. And the back pedal, increase distance, is one of the most taught ways of movement I've seen from them. And move off the X is one step to the side then stand and shoot. Good way to see the inside of a body bag in my book.


    Maybe I'm wrong but we all have to do what we have to do.

    And yes Brownie I know all I need to know about your feud with SI and their instructors.
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    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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    Getting off the x is more than one step and delivering. Getting of the x is a fluid motion of movement and shooting while trying to get to cover. If an instructor ever tells you to stand and fight its time to find another instructor.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    All I can say is since my finding SI I've seen things talked about and done there that much later becomes the great new thing and never have I seen anything mentioned about SI using it earlier. So if others know about it why is it not being taught.

    For me I'll go where I see training that will give me the best advantage of going home after the situation is over. Most training schools videos and adds don't give much hope of their doing that. And the back pedal, increase distance, is one of the most taught ways of movement I've seen from them. And move off the X is one step to the side then stand and shoot. Good way to see the inside of a body bag in my book.


    Maybe I'm wrong but we all have to do what we have to do.

    And yes Brownie I know all I need to know about your feud with SI and their instructors.
    I haven't feuded with any of them in years.

    For me I'll go where I see training that will give me the best advantage of going home after the situation is over

    Funny you should mention that Bill. His course ads all state the best of the best, state of the art, on the cutting edge, and blah blah blah. Funny, don't you think, that his course materials changed so rapidly over the course of a few years and his new ads were stating best of the best, state of the art, on the cutting edge, and blah blah blah again.

    Seems if i took something that was purported to be the best and sold as such, I'd be pretty PO'd if the course skills changed and now they were advertised as the best, and I paid for what was supposed to be the best two years before that. Me thinks that smells of false advertising, but great marketing that people fall for regularly.

    It was the best 2 years ago, now we've changed our material and it's the best now. And in another two years, what was touted as the best today will be supplanted with new skills that will "the best" then. Nah, that sheet shouldn't wash with people who thought they were getting the best bang for the buck, and discovered it was nothing more than marketing, it couldn't have been the best, cause he's got the best now.

    And where did the "new" best material come from? Other people, it's all just BS IMO, and I have all the evidence I need to back that up, if you'd like me to post it here I will if challenged it's not correct.
    The mind is the limiting factor

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    I haven't feuded with any of them in years.

    For me I'll go where I see training that will give me the best advantage of going home after the situation is over

    Funny you should mention that Bill. His course ads all state the best of the best, state of the art, on the cutting edge, and blah blah blah. Funny, don't you think, that his course materials changed so rapidly over the course of a few years and his new ads were stating best of the best, state of the art, on the cutting edge, and blah blah blah again.

    Seems if i took something that was purported to be the best and sold as such, I'd be pretty PO'd if the course skills changed and now they were advertised as the best, and I paid for what was supposed to be the best two years before that. Me thinks that smells of false advertising, but great marketing that people fall for regularly.

    It was the best 2 years ago, now we've changed our material and it's the best now. And in another two years, what was touted as the best today will be supplanted with new skills that will "the best" then. Nah, that sheet shouldn't wash with people who thought they were getting the best bang for the buck, and discovered it aa nothing more than marketing, it couldn't have been the best, cause he's got the best now.

    And where did the "new" best material come from? Other people, it's all just BS IMO, and I have all the evidence I need to back that up, if you'd like me to post it here I will if challenged it's not correct.
    I understand what you are saying, but in fairness, an instructor willing to evolve IMO is pretty good...
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Getting off the x is more than one step and delivering. Getting of the x is a fluid motion of movement and shooting while trying to get to cover. If an instructor ever tells you to stand and fight its time to find another instructor.....
    There's a time and place for everything. Sometimes movement is the best option, sometimes stand and deliver is best. It depends on the scenario and ones skill levels. As an example, Fairbairn and Sykes and a good part of Applegates course taught stand and deliver. In the mid 1930s, those stand and deliver skills won over 600 gun fights in under three years in Shanghai. At the time, Shanghai was the most dangerous city in the world.

    There's a time and place for everything. Movement is needed at times and at times it's not the best option. It depends on a lot of variables and ones skill level with a particular set of skills. There are no absolutes in the world of dynamically engaging perps, period, and if someone tells you differently, they aren't as well educated in how to survive as they profess to be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    I understand what you are saying, but in fairness, an instructor willing to evolve IMO is pretty good...
    Evolve yes, everyone should and likely does evolve if they are growing and learning. False advertising and making outlandish claims what you have is the best is nothing more than marketing to the masses who buy into the "best" and then realize a few years later, it was discarded for what now is purportedly the best. Don't advertise you have the best and then admit it wasn't after the student paid for the best according to the advertising and marketing. It paints you into a corner like he has over the years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    There's a time and place for everything. Sometimes movement is the best option, sometimes stand and deliver is best. It depends on the scenario and ones skill levels. As an example, Fairbairn and Sykes and a good part of Applegates course taught stand and deliver. In the mid 1930s, those stand and deliver skills won over 600 gun fights in under three years in Shanghai. At the time, Shanghai was the most dangerous city in the world.

    There's a time and place for everything. Movement is needed at times and at times it's not the best option. It depends on a lot of variables and ones skill level with a particular set of skills.
    Each fight is it own event and should be viewed as such. Movement is just another tactic to be used...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Each fight is it own event and should be viewed as such. Movement is just another tactic to be used...
    Exactly, so an instructor who tells you you have to always move is not giving the best advice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Exactly, so an instructor who tells you you have to always move is not giving the best advice.
    I can not think of a situation other than being in a hallway were movement wouldnt be your friend, then again a fast approach forward might work. Ill stand by my previous statement....
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    [QUOTE=Harryball;2929765]I can not think of a situation other than being in a hallway were movement wouldnt be your friend, then again a fast approach forward might work. Ill stand by my previous statement....[/QUOTE]

    Each fight is it own event and should be viewed as such. Movement is just another tactic to be used...


    I agreed with that,

    And you're right, a hallway is one location where moving "off the x" isn't going to gain you much. Try moving off the x on a stairwell. lol By the way, you're aware "getting off the x" is incorrectly used by a lot of people aren't you?

    If you are standing on the "x" and move, where you are now standing is the "x" once again. You can't get off the x, you are the x no matter where you move to. lol
    Last edited by AzQkr; October 1st, 2013 at 02:47 PM.
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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=AzQkr;2929781]
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    I can not think of a situation other than being in a hallway were movement wouldnt be your friend, then again a fast approach forward might work. Ill stand by my previous statement....[/QUOTE]

    Each fight is it own event and should be viewed as such. Movement is just another tactic to be used...


    I agreed with that,

    And you're right, a hallway is one location where moving "off the x" isn't going to gain you much. Try moving off the x on a stairwell. lol By the way, you're away "getting off the x" is incorrectly used by a lot of people aren't you?

    If you are standing on the "x" and move, where you are now standing is the "x" once again. You can't get off the x, you are the x no matter where you move to. lol

    I have to disagree somewhat with the meaning of the standing on X you stated above. The X to me is the spot the BG is seeing me standing on. GOTX is moving myself from that spot to another which then becomes to X he (BG) now sees me at. This is why once you start to move you have to keep moving to remove yourself from the X.

    The main X to me is my kill zone, my COM, if I can keep it moving, I think most all will agree a moving target is harder to hit, my chances of not getting hit has gone up. Keep changing where COM is located.

    Yes our thoughts may be very similar and mostly a play on words but yet different.

    As to not always needing to move. I see about the only time one would find moving not being a help is if you are already standing behind cover. If so I'd think twice about moving out from behind it just to move.

    While being confined to a small area would cut down on movement there is always something that can be done. If nothing else moving the body up and down will change location of COM. If push comes to shove I'll take hits in my body other than a kill shot. But none would be better.

    But the fight will be what the fight is and all situations are different. This is why one needs to train and practice, as the fight is a thinking but knowing mans game. What you do needs to be reactive to what the minds eye sees.
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    [QUOTE=Bill MO;2929906]
    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post


    I have to disagree somewhat with the meaning of the standing on X you stated above. The X to me is the spot the BG is seeing me standing on. GOTX is moving myself from that spot to another which then becomes to X he (BG) now sees me at. This is why once you start to move you have to keep moving to remove yourself from the X.

    The main X to me is my kill zone, my COM, if I can keep it moving, I think most all will agree a moving target is harder to hit, my chances of not getting hit has gone up. Keep changing where COM is located.

    Yes our thoughts may be very similar and mostly a play on words but yet different.

    As to not always needing to move. I see about the only time one would find moving not being a help is if you are already standing behind cover. If so I'd think twice about moving out from behind it just to move.

    While being confined to a small area would cut down on movement there is always something that can be done. If nothing else moving the body up and down will change location of COM. If push comes to shove I'll take hits in my body other than a kill shot. But none would be better.

    But the fight will be what the fight is and all situations are different. This is why one needs to train and practice, as the fight is a thinking but knowing mans game. What you do needs to be reactive to what the minds eye sees.
    When there's no where to move, we train to hide behind a wall of bullets. I don't know about moving up and down standing there, you still take hits, thus are damaged and it's only going to get worse to defend once you're injured.
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