How Fast is Fast Enough?

How Fast is Fast Enough?

This is a discussion on How Fast is Fast Enough? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Can we even quantify [ with a timer ] how fast is fast enough for self defense? Is there a magic number in terms of ...

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Thread: How Fast is Fast Enough?

  1. #1
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    How Fast is Fast Enough?

    Can we even quantify [ with a timer ] how fast is fast enough for self defense?

    Is there a magic number in terms of seconds or one second + hundredths of seconds which would be acceptable for any particular self defense situation where the use of our concealed carry gun is concerned?

    What goals [ if we can quatify such in reaction time to shots fired ] do we establish as realistically viable for the average ccw carrier on the street?

    Most of us practice with our carry weapons with two primary missions or goals in mind where use of the handgun will be used to defend ourselves.

    1. To be able to clear leather/kydex and get rounds out as quickly as possible [ physical ] when the decision to use deadly force is made [ mental ].

    2. To effectively put rounds on the perceived threat/s with enough accuracy [ in places that hurt/stop them ] to have the desired effect of stopping further potential deadly force being used against us.

    Can it be quantified in "time" at all? It seems it would be situational dependent on a multitude of factors to me.

    Time [ where we are in the OODA cycle ] and distance being the two biggest perhaps.

    Can we determine that sub one second draws to first shot are fast enough? What is a realistic expectation of time to decide to shoot [ mental ] and then drawing to first shot on the street [ physical ability ]?
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    You essentially answered your own questions, so there isn't much to add.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    You essentially answered your own questions, so there isn't much to add.
    Unless you have other thoughts not expressed, both positive or negative to what I wrote.
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    I like the fact that you bring in the OODA loop. Which is something most do not understand. I realize that thru many reps, one can go on auto drive with the draw and presentation, making fast accurate shots. I think a time standard would be very difficult for some and not so for others.

    IMO I think being able to get from concealment, and put 3 shots on target in 1.2 sec would work in most scenarios, but we both know that its not an absolute....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    I like the fact that you bring in the OODA loop. Which is something most do not understand. I realize that thru many reps, one can go on auto drive with the draw and presentation, making fast accurate shots. I think a time standard would be very difficult for some and not so for others.

    IMO I think being able to get from concealment, and put 3 shots on target in 1.2 sec would work in most scenarios, but we both know that its not an absolute....
    Time/distance/accuracy requirements necessary should dictate what skills are used. I don't think anyone can quantify what may or may not be fast enough in any given scenario, so I continue to practice to be faster from the holster with COM hits and will continue to do so as long as I'm able to.
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    I would think speed is great but accuracy is better. The best thing is combining the two. Of those clear the holster has to be done, then accurately hitting the target . These are intertwined

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    Well.....about 1 second faster than the other guy and 100% more accurate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatorbait51 View Post
    I would think speed is great but accuracy is better. The best thing is combining the two. Of those clear the holster has to be done, then accurately hitting the target . These are intertwined
    If you don't have enough speed, you may not have to worry about accuracy. If you don't hit, the speed to clear the holster and muzzle the perp is basically irrelevant. I agree, one must combine the two to be as effective as possible at stopping the threat from creating great bodily harm or death.

    None of my speed draws count unless they are placed into the chest size area. If you are missing, slow down. If you are making less than 8"groups, speed up.
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    An old member here whom I learned a lot from (Guantes), sometimes spoke about misdirection (what the newer generation now talk about as screwing with the OODA loop).

    Speed is always good, but you don't have to be chained-blue-lightening to successfully DATD and win. Having a plan, practice and thinking quick on your feet are all part of the equation.
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    Program yourself to be aware of your surroundings at all times and you won't have to worry about a shot timer or how fast you can draw because most likely you will already have your hand on your gun if you need it. If you run around with your head up your butt most of the time then you better worry about your draw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WHEC724 View Post
    An old member here whom I learned a lot from (Guantes), sometimes spoke about misdirection (what the newer generation now talk about as screwing with the OODA loop).

    Speed is always good, but you don't have to be chained-blue-lightening to successfully DATD and win. Having a plan, practice and thinking quick on your feet are all part of the equation.
    Guantes has co-instructed with myself and two other trainers here in Az some time back. His DATD is superb where the perp is close enough. I'm one of just a few authorized to train others in the DATD which he perfected after having used it against a living/breathing perp holding a shottie to his head. He's a good man with very fast reflexes which saved his butt on more than one occasion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Guantes has co-instructed with myself and two other trainers here in Az some time back. His DATD is superb where the perp is close enough. I'm one of just a few authorized to train others in the DATD which he perfected after having used it against a living/breathing perp holding a shottie to his head. He's a good man with very fast reflexes which saved his butt on more than one occasion.
    Small world! That is really cool. I'd love to sign up for that training. Time is my enemy.
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    Can we determine that sub one second draws to first shot are fast enough? What is a realistic expectation of time to decide to shoot [ mental ] and then drawing to first shot on the street [ physical ability ]?

    I would discourage someone from carrying till they could
    discern the need in a situation, acquire their weapon and place 2 shots COM in under 2 seconds
    this is one definition of 'competency'

    carrying a gun before you can do this and the having may not work in your favor
    but mindset is as important as speed...being pro-active in thought --
    I will succeed, and being capable of doing that which may be necessary --
    damaging, indeed, possibly killing another human.

    what was said about being in battle, few today have been there but you can get a feel
    for how your mind works in an emergency by how you have acted in auto accidents;
    or perhaps you have been in a burning building...some event which tested you.

    did you act effectively, go along with what was happening or go hysterical?
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    I think it's too situational for a solid answer. All you can really do is hope for the best in any situation. How fast can you be, for example, when completely ambushed? I take the approach of:
    1) have a gun. If it's needed, you'll be better off than someone who doesn't
    2) practice shooting with it and be familiar with its operation. You'll be better off than someone who hasn't
    3) practice drawing it...get a feel for how long it takes to employ. You'll have a better idea about what's realistic to expect to be able to do should a situation arise.

    I doubt fast access and draw would ever be a hindrance, but I typically find that enabling it also tends to reduce concealability or security. So in my circumstances, I have a relatively low speed draw with extremely high concealability and security...no it's not perfect for many situations, but just fine in others, and fortunately has never been an issue, and with continued luck, never will be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Time/distance/accuracy requirements necessary should dictate what skills are used. I don't think anyone can quantify what may or may not be fast enough in any given scenario, so I continue to practice to be faster from the holster with COM hits and will continue to do so as long as I'm able to.
    Thats is why I offered an opinion based on your first question. I train to get a fast and accurate as I can be. Each encounter is its own. There is no one size fits all.....
    Aceoky, gatorbait51 and brocktice like this.
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