How many here practice Force-on-Force and..

How many here practice Force-on-Force and..

This is a discussion on How many here practice Force-on-Force and.. within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; What is the number of rounds that you DAILY CCW carries? 1. How many times have you ran FoF this year? 2. Did FoF convince ...

View Poll Results: What amount of rounds does your CCW carry?

Voters
138. You may not vote on this poll
  • 5-6

    14 10.14%
  • 7+1

    21 15.22%
  • 8+1

    28 20.29%
  • 10+1

    23 16.67%
  • 13+1

    20 14.49%
  • 15+1

    19 13.77%
  • 17+1

    9 6.52%
  • more than 17+1

    4 2.90%
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Thread: How many here practice Force-on-Force and..

  1. #1
    Member Array oregonshooter's Avatar
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    How many here practice Force-on-Force and..

    What is the number of rounds that you DAILY CCW carries?

    1. How many times have you ran FoF this year?

    2. Did FoF convince you that more rounds on deck is critical?

    3. Do you carry a gun with 10 or less rounds even though you saw a benefit in your FoF training for more?


    PS. You guys that are voting but not posting.... let us hear how the rounds on deck choice you made has been affected by FoF?

    It's not just a "how many rounds does your gun hold poll." I want to know why you selected what you EDC based on experience with FoF scenarios or lack of.

    If you want to vote but have never done FoF then please post that you have not but feel that the gun you carry and it's rounds on board are enough because....?
    Last edited by oregonshooter; December 6th, 2006 at 05:38 PM.


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Hey Jim,

    G17 17+1

    I've had four FOF sessions this year.

    My rounds on board were more than sufficient to take care of the "realistic" scenarios that we work with.

    I carry my 5 shot J-frame with one speed strip at times. I do not feel underarmed with that in my neighborhood, in the places that I carry it. Any concern on the "neighborhood" and the J-frame stays at home or is used as a BUG and the G17 is carried as the primary.

  3. #3
    Member Array oregonshooter's Avatar
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    Thanks Roger.

    I have to admit, I've only gotten one good session in this year and that was with SouthNarc.

    I carry the G17 also and found that 8+1 was not enough during 2:1 and rapid movement.



    PS. You guys that are voting but not posting.... let us hear how the rounds on deck choice you made has been affected by FoF?

    It's not just a "how many rounds does your gun hold poll." I want to know why you selected what you EDC based on experience with FoF scenarios or lack of.

    If you want to vote but have never done FoF then please post that you have not but feel that the gun you carry and it's rounds on board are enough because....?

  4. #4
    Member Array foreveryoung001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oregonshooter View Post

    If you want to vote but have never done FoF then please post that you have not but feel that the gun you carry and it's rounds on board are enough because....?[/B]

    I've Never done FoF. That said.... as an experienced shooter, but newbie to CCW (still waiting on permit), I currently have two options available. My Sig P232 or my Beretta 92. I enjoy shooting both of them, but with the Sig, I am finding it easier to conceal as I get used to wearing it around the house and property. I'm a decent shot with it, I live in one of the lowest crime areas of the state, and I've not read any fact-based stories where a potential victim ever got in an all out shooting war with an assaliant. So, in my mind, 7+1 and an extra mag, should be more than enough.
    When the messenger arrives and says 'Don't shoot the messenger,' it's a good idea to be prepared to shoot the messenger, just in case.

  5. #5
    Distinguished Member Array dimmak's Avatar
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    In the FOF training I do, any "failures" weren't capacity related, but other factors such as additional assailants (flanking) etc....

    I carry a P220 ST most of the time and feel it will sufficiently do its job as long as I sufficiently do mine. Reloading drills are a must.
    I will however carry a G32 occasionally....
    "Ray Nagin is a colossal disappointment" - NRA/ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox.


    "...be water, my friend."

  6. #6
    Senior Member Array PapaScout's Avatar
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    I don't know what Force-on-Force training is (sounds like "real-life" scenario with armed assailants?) but will now be searching to find out. Sorry, just being honest.

    I carry my BHP with the 15 rnd Meccgar (sp?) mag as primary. Extra mag (13) in the left pocket if I'm feeling uppity. Sometimes the s&w 442 is backup and sometimes primary. Either way I only have the 5 shots in the snubbie with no extra.

    So I'm either 16, 29, 34, or 5 shots.
    "If you so much as bunny hop I'll cut your heart out!" Billy Bob Thornton in The Last Real Cowboys

    "I carry a gun for the same reason that I carry health insurance and a cell phone - be prepared."

  7. #7
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    I haven't had FOF yet but in March will train with Gabe Suarez.

    From everything I have read, force on force provides the test of how your tactics will work.

    I will post results after the session.

  8. #8
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    I have practiced FoF as well as move and shoot techniques. My thou gt, 7+1 should be enough, but a spare mag is also carried. While its fun to run and gun, every shot taken during an engagement needs to be accounted for. A spray and pray mind set may save ya(I doubt it), but may also injure bystanders.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array purple88yj's Avatar
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    I haven't taken any "formal" FoF training. Not due to lack of interest, but lack of fundage.

    I will use my house as a background against imaginary asailants, and some rather covert practice (mental excersizes) when I and the family are out.

    As for what my DC carries, my current wasn't on the list (11+1), but I voted for what I am going into (7+1). I carry what I have right now because I have the holster for it that I am comfortable with and lots, and lots of prctice with it.

    I will be going 1911 for comfort (narrower profile). I have a lot of practice with these too, but no holster. Being left-handed sucks sometimes.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    8+1 was not enough during 2:1 and rapid movement.
    Dynamic multiples are tough and I would not want to be limited on ammo in the gun.

    The 5 shot J-frame is only used for quick trips to the video store, to grab some coffe, or as a covert weapon in places that I simply can not be made.

    A spray and pray mind set may save ya(I doubt it), but may also injure bystanders.
    I think that you would be surprised what you can do with the right training. In my course, I have the students push themselves until they have established their limitations (out past practical application) and their hit rate is still right around 97% while running and gunning.

    But this is no where near spray and pray......this is all logically aimed fire. The key is the training!

    haven't had FOF yet but in March will train with Gabe Suarez.
    You will have a great time! Let me be the first to say "welcome to the light."
    Last edited by Sweatnbullets; December 6th, 2006 at 05:46 PM.

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Yes.

    G30=10+1
    Para= 17+1
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  12. #12
    Senior Member Array razorblade's Avatar
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    7+1 in the 1911 compact, one spare mag on the hip.

    I haven't done FoF in a while, although I have used harsh language in the past 24 hours and hurt someone's feelings if that counts (shrugs shoulders).

  13. #13
    Member Array oregonshooter's Avatar
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    The ode to Ronin. :)

  14. #14
    Member Array oregonshooter's Avatar
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    In the FOF training I do, any "failures" weren't capacity related, but other factors such as additional assailants (flanking) etc....

    I carry a P220 ST most of the time and feel it will sufficiently do its job as long as I sufficiently do mine. Reloading drills are a must.
    I will however carry a G32 occasionally....
    This seems like a contradiction to me?




    I'm really glad that I posted this. Even if ONE person (already have) says they will look into FoF for their training, it will have been way worht it.

    FoF is the most realistic way to test tactics and equipment in a dynamic enviornment. It does not require going to a facy school, but getting quality training from someone like Gabe Suarez definately won't hurt.

    Google it and start doing it. It will change your mind on a lot of things.

  15. #15
    Member Array oregonshooter's Avatar
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    Just got this from the Gabe Suarez newsletter today. Sums it up nicely.

    The URGENT Need For Force On Force

    Imagine a class of students studying the art of swimming. The instructor, ostensibly an expert swimmer with credentials and such, calmly walks up to the class and begins lecturing. The environment is totally comfortable and dry, the students are clothed in typical business clothing and notes are being taken as they sip water or coffee.

    The lecturer goes on to describe the need to float, and to move the arms and legs in unison, this way and that. He discusses passingly how to breathe and what water temperature may do to the technique. He shows films of swimmers, and analyzes the techniques.

    Finally, the class understands the concept of swimming.

    Then they retire to their respective swim couches and practice their strokes incessantly. After a while they very good at this and can whip out a back stroke or breast stroke or even a dog paddle like the expert in class. They are given Swimmer Diplomas and sent out ready to swim....should the need arise.

    Eventually these would-be swimmers begin discussing the merits of pumping the arms more than the feet, or of holding the breath or the theoretical need to get the head up out of the place the water would be, if in fact they were swimming in water, in order to breathe. Minutia upon minutia are analyzed and discussed to perfect "the couch swim".

    But nobody ever gets into the water. The water is a fearfull place. One actually gets wet. "There be dragons" seems to be the attitude. "The water is not safe", some say. Others say that the mere suggestion that one would have to test the Master Swimmer's Theory Of Swimming to be a disloyal and unfaithful act. "Analytical swimmers do not need to get into the water", others murmur as they grind through their swim katas every day.

    The discussions on minutia and the unaswered questions persist. Yet if one of them dared to wander into the murky wetness, all the questions that they have spent hours and hours bemusing would be answered in one instant flash of sudden understanding.

    I'll let you in on a secret. It is a dark and ugly secret that has been kept hidden like a national security issue for decades.

    The master swimmer does not, in fact, know how to swim.

    He can teach you the technique for making swimming motions on a safe couch, but he knows nothing of the water. The couch swim doesn't work in a pool, much less in the ocean. His students would drown.
    That is a fact he would kill to keep hidden, because he has invested so much in his teaching methods and technical presentation.

    Quite an illustration isn't it? Much the same can be said for many other things in life. One of them is Gun Fighting.

    I get students from range-based schools, and their satellites all the time. These guys and gals have been drilled into the indoctrination of how to stand, how to draw, and of course, how to use the sights to carefully fire a nice pair into a piece of paper. They have previously spend their training time perfecting their stance, or focusing more on their front sight, or reacting to the first tone of the whistle or tone. Slight changes in holsters, or triggers, or other incomprehensible irrelevancies filled their study time.

    These things do not last more than the first few minutes of our class.

    Yet, some of our herasy and blasphemies have spread through the cracks into other schools curricula. Formerly square-range based, they want to put a toe into the water without getting their carefully pressed Royal Robbins tuxedo wet. It is impossible to hide the truth in the age of the internet.

    I have seen them come and draw and fire, then and only then taking a quick single side step so as to give passing lip service to getting off the X without altering their precise sight picture and stable platform.

    The open mouth and furrowed brow that results from their failure is almost uniform.

    If only people would simply get into the water...into the Force on Force crucible, all things would be known immediately like the dripping swimmer who has just completed his first pool workout. In a handful of chaotic and often intense seconds, the force on force student knows more about gunfighting than the untested range instructor who has been shooting groups all his life.

    Stop being the theoretical dry couch swimmer and jump into the freaking pool. Heck, just think of all the time and money that will be saved once you have the "secret" knowledge that so many are trying to keep from you.

    Put down your range bag, grab an airsoft pistol and a training partner and step into the light.

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