Should This Be Corrected?

Should This Be Corrected?

This is a discussion on Should This Be Corrected? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I noticed (for the first time) at the practice range today a possible flaw in my grip during draw & shoot. Now before the chorus ...

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Thread: Should This Be Corrected?

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Should This Be Corrected?

    I noticed (for the first time) at the practice range today a possible flaw in my grip during draw & shoot.

    Now before the chorus of "You should be moving laterally" begins to sing, it was my intent to practice
    only in a retreating straight line as I believe it is not always practical or safe to move laterally.

    You'll see during this short video when I bring my left hand up to complete the two hand grip; I am (Tea Cupping).

    My accuracy at this close range seems unaffected, yet I wonder...(Should I be concentrating on the better full grip)?

    This was a simple draw & fire drill. When I slow shoot, my grip is proper.

    Range Practice - YouTube
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    You do not want to leave an improper grip uncorrected.

    You can practice drawing and making sure your grip is correct every single time at home in front of a mirror with an UNLOADED gun. Start slow, then increase your speed. This builds muscle memory. I do it all the time.
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    The tea cupping does need to be corrected, but isn't the end of the world. What I saw from the video is that you were way too close to the target to be fully extending the firearm. You put it within arm's reach of the "opponent". If it would have been a person rather than paper you may have found yourself fighting for control of the gun. No need to drive the thing out there when you're so close.
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    Senior Member Array patri0t's Avatar
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    The Lateral thing is better left to the pros (LE & Military) who may find themselves in extended conflicts.

    The time it took to empty your mag is an average gunfight. Put as many rounds as it takes to "stop" the attacker. 4-8 seconds at about the same distance 4-8 feet.
    I was taught to crouch more, that may work well for some in making a smaller target. (I hate to double guess endless variables.

    I'd call this Vid good, but those 'flyers' on the head-shots worry me.

    Echo_Four states well.... Your left hand/arm at the beginning should be out front to push the attacker or get to grip, if time.
    Something to think about/work on.
    Distance is VERY realistic, possible hip shot? Real life would be your call, for sure.

    Except for those flyers, I'd say this is 'Real-World' excellent, considering speed.
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    At the close range at which you shot, your tea-cup grip won't matter a whole lot, but I noticed a significant amount of muzzle flip which would be reduced with a better grip. But your tea cup was no worse than a 1-handed grip.

    The other thing that caught my eye was the effort and motion it took to draw your gun. At a minimum, I would cinch up my belt a notch, since it looked like there was a lot of excess motion required to get your gun clear of the holster. FYI, take a look at some of the Ron Avery videos such as this one: Ron Avery Talks the Science of the Draw Stroke - YouTube
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    Your support hand is contacting the gun too late. Clap your hands - that's where your support hand should contact the gun.
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    It's good you're practicing up close. I would suggest that even though you were not at 'contact distance', you were close....close enough for a grab. Consider starting from a high retention position for the first few shots, working diagonally backwards then extend the weapon. This video is not the greatest, and he starts closer but I think it gives you the idea. I like parking the butt of the gun into my ribs, canted and just below my pectoral. Shooting From Retention Position - YouTube

    Respectfully, DP

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    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patri0t View Post

    'flyers' on the head-shots worry me.
    I agree..I'm usually not off that much especially at this very close range.
    Thanks for re-enforcing my thoughts on the flyers as well.

    Wish I could lie and say they were from "earlier" shots..But alas no.
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    JMB
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    Don't take this the wrong way but have you had any formal training?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    At the close range at which you shot, your tea-cup grip won't matter a whole lot,
    Thanks for the observation.
    What you say is kinda' how I feel about it although I could be wrong. To me, it seems drawing at such a close range is primarily a
    one handed affair. I wondered in those few brief seconds if I proper grip could even be attained by the 4th or 5th round and should I really be concentrating
    on that.

    Yes on the muzzle flip. The G 27 seems to have some "bite" though I feel based on the shots on target it is mostly controllable although
    maybe a tighter grip or some skaters tape will help.

    It seems in the past year, the more I practice the more errors I find...Reminds me of my golf game which I'm beginning to believe
    is like shooting; the learning never stops.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMB View Post
    Don't take this the wrong way but have you had any formal training?
    Not sure what qualifies as "formal", but a close friend of mine is the Tac Swat Training officer here in my city.
    He has been out with me several times providing not so much precision shooting drills, but reactionary drills to "what if" scenarios.
    Yea; I'd like to train with him every weekend but that is not going to happen due to his work load.

    ..and I don't take anything "wrong" anymore...been around long enough to develop alligator skin. LOL
    "When those who are governed do too little, those who govern can, and will, do too much." Ronald Reagan

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    JMB
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    Copy.

    Aside from what others have noted, it looks like you are drawing with your elbow pointed "out" away from your body. I think most instructors would tell you it should be pointed back.

    That's the good thing with having a knowledgeable person observe you...they will see things you can't. If it were me, I would slow down and concentrate on doing everything correctly Dry Fire. You have to be patient and give yourself time to develop muscle memory...otherwise you may just learn it wrong and never know it because you can't observe yourself very well sometimes.

    The close contact shooting shown in the videos above can be very dangerous. I would not attempt this without professional formal training.
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    People commenting have more experience than I, but it seems that your support hand is hanging a bit in the danger zone and should be either contacting the threat or on the same side (toward the back) of your head with elbow protruding toward the nose of the threat (in both cases shots are to the abdomen/hips of the threat) or in contact with your own body in either supporting clearing the holster and not available to the threat as a handle to your own center or something that crosses your line of fire during the struggle or in a firm retention grip.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    What I saw from the video is that you were way too close to the target to be fully extending the firearm.
    Agreed..and if I read your posted icon right you will understand how difficult it will be for me as
    25 years of MA training in close combat dictates "make space for me, take away their space"..or "position before submission."
    I need to unwind some MA tac techniques as they are not compatible with the steel in my hand.

    Thanks for the observation; I know it is something I need to work on.
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    You don't have to let those techniques go. They actually mesh quite well with what you want to do with the gun. Just keep the gun back. At contact range my right hand will be in contact with my pec as I take the shots. As I increase distance the gun will be driven out. You can be very close and still decide to close the distance in some situations. Just don't leave the gun hanging out for the other guy to grab it.
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