The truth on training by the best trainer

This is a discussion on The truth on training by the best trainer within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The URGENT Need For Force On Force Imagine a class of students studying the art of swimming. The instructor, ostensibly an expert swimmer with credentials ...

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Thread: The truth on training by the best trainer

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    Member Array lostone1413's Avatar
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    The truth on training by the best trainer

    The URGENT Need For Force On Force

    Imagine a class of students studying the art of swimming. The instructor, ostensibly an expert swimmer with credentials and such, calmly walks up to the class and begins lecturing. The environment is totally comfortable and dry, the students are clothed in typical business clothing and notes are being taken as they sip water or coffee.

    The lecturer goes on to describe the need to float, and to move the arms and legs in unison, this way and that. He discusses passingly how to breathe and what water temperature may do to the technique. He shows films of swimmers, and analyzes the techniques.

    Finally, the class understands the concept of swimming.

    Then they retire to their respective swim couches and practice their strokes incessantly. After a while they very good at this and can whip out a back stroke or breast stroke or even a dog paddle like the expert in class. They are given Swimmer Diplomas and sent out ready to swim....should the need arise.

    Eventually these would-be swimmers begin discussing the merits of pumping the arms more than the feet, or of holding the breath or the theoretical need to get the head up out of the place the water would be, if in fact they were swimming in water, in order to breathe. Minutia upon minutia are analyzed and discussed to perfect "the couch swim".

    But nobody ever gets into the water. The water is a fearfull place. One actually gets wet. "There be dragons" seems to be the attitude. "The water is not safe", some say. Others say that the mere suggestion that one would have to test the Master Swimmer's Theory Of Swimming to be a disloyal and unfaithful act. "Analytical swimmers do not need to get into the water", others murmur as they grind through their swim katas every day.

    The discussions on minutia and the unaswered questions persist. Yet if one of them dared to wander into the murky wetness, all the questions that they have spent hours and hours bemusing would be answered in one instant flash of sudden understanding.

    I'll let you in on a secret. It is a dark and ugly secret that has been kept hidden like a national security issue for decades.

    The master swimmer does not, in fact, know how to swim.

    He can teach you the technique for making swimming motions on a safe couch, but he knows nothing of the water. The couch swim doesn't work in a pool, much less in the ocean. His students would drown.
    That is a fact he would kill to keep hidden, because he has invested so much in his teaching methods and technical presentation.

    Quite an illustration isn't it? Much the same can be said for many other things in life. One of them is Gun Fighting.

    I get students from range-based schools, and their satellites all the time. These guys and gals have been drilled into the indoctrination of how to stand, how to draw, and of course, how to use the sights to carefully fire a nice pair into a piece of paper. They have previously spend their training time perfecting their stance, or focusing more on their front sight, or reacting to the first tone of the whistle or tone. Slight changes in holsters, or triggers, or other incomprehensible irrelevancies filled their study time.

    These things do not last more than the first few minutes of our class.

    Yet, some of our herasy and blasphemies have spread through the cracks into other schools curricula. Formerly square-range based, they want to put a toe into the water without getting their carefully pressed Royal Robbins tuxedo wet. It is impossible to hide the truth in the age of the internet.

    I have seen them come and draw and fire, then and only then taking a quick single side step so as to give passing lip service to getting off the X without altering their precise sight picture and stable platform.

    The open mouth and furrowed brow that results from their failure is almost uniform.

    If only people would simply get into the water...into the Force on Force crucible, all things would be known immediately like the dripping swimmer who has just completed his first pool workout. In a handful of chaotic and often intense seconds, the force on force student knows more about gunfighting than the untested range instructor who has been shooting groups all his life.

    Stop being the theoretical dry couch swimmer and jump into the freaking pool. Heck, just think of all the time and money that will be saved once you have the "secret" knowledge that so many are trying to keep from you.

    Put down your range bag, grab an airsoft pistol and a training partner and step into the light.
    Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.
    John F. Kennedy

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    I like Simunitions better. They hurt more.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    Member Array ShackleMeNot's Avatar
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    Gabe makes a lot of good points.

    Force on Force training can do serious damage to your ego and show that prior training and practice hasn't prepared you for fighting.
    Shay Van Vlymen - Instructor Tactical Response

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    Member Array Double Naught Spy's Avatar
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    Stop being the theoretical dry couch swimmer and jump into the freaking pool. Heck, just think of all the time and money that will be saved once you have the "secret" knowledge that so many are trying to keep from you.
    What's with the paranoid conspiracy theory?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
    What's with the paranoid conspiracy theory?
    I second that!

    And to be honest, FOF, is like swimming in a swimming pool and pretending your in the middle of the ocean. It's only as real as your mind can make it and that's probably not going to be anywhere near the intensity of the real thing.

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    Member Array lostone1413's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I second that!

    And to be honest, FOF, is like swimming in a swimming pool and pretending your in the middle of the ocean. It's only as real as your mind can make it and that's probably not going to be anywhere near the intensity of the real thing.
    The thing is with FOF you will still be better trained then someone who only shoots targets. How you react in one gunfight by no means dictates how you will act if you are in another gunfight
    Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.
    John F. Kennedy

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    Member Array lostone1413's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
    What's with the paranoid conspiracy theory?

    Conspiracy Theory?? I never seen that in what Gabe said. What I seen is the reality of what most schools teach you if you should end up in a real gunfight. That some might call a Conspiracy Theory. I call it someone wanting me to wake up so I can increase the odds of coming out on top of a real gunfight
    Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.
    John F. Kennedy

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    Member Array ShackleMeNot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I second that!

    And to be honest, FOF, is like swimming in a swimming pool and pretending your in the middle of the ocean. It's only as real as your mind can make it and that's probably not going to be anywhere near the intensity of the real thing.
    True, but if you can't even swim well in a swimming pool you probably aren't going to do well swimming in the middle of the ocean.

    Force on Force is as close as you are safely going to get to the fight.
    Shay Van Vlymen - Instructor Tactical Response

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShackleMeNot View Post
    True, but if you can't even swim well in a swimming pool you probably aren't going to do well swimming in the middle of the ocean.

    Force on Force is as close as you are safely going to get to the fight.
    I've had over 280 hours of formal handgun training including lot's of FOF training; I see the good of it, and I see the deception and false security in it. To stay with the swimming analogy, you can be the best swimmer in the pool and not be prepared for the reality of the ocean. In fact, being the best swimmer in "simulation", may give you the boldness to bite off more than you can chew.

    I'd be happy if CCWers would just take a weekend shooting skills course.

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    Member Array Double Naught Spy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostone1413 View Post
    Conspiracy Theory?? I never seen that in what Gabe said. What I seen is the reality of what most schools teach you if you should end up in a real gunfight. That some might call a Conspiracy Theory. I call it someone wanting me to wake up so I can increase the odds of coming out on top of a real gunfight
    Let's see, "Gabe" is making the claim that "they" (gun schools/instructors) are keeping from us a "secret" we need to protect ourselves. The fact there is a "they" doing something to us is a conspiracy and the "secret" we aren't being told that we need for our protection is what makes it paranoid.

    FOF is fine enough. I never had the impression gun schools/instructors were keeping me from real FOF. In fact, several I have attended do offer it. I am guessing that Gabe can't handle real simunitions, hence his promotion of Airsoff. Of course, it may be that he is offering a new book on the topic and is trying to look really cool by trying to set himself apart as the only gun person promoting FOF.

    On the High Road, you justified your posting of Gabe's words by noting that you know folks who have been through tops schools and not had FOF. You also suggested that if we don't know who he is to do a search on him.
    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=240098

    I did. That would be Gabriel Suarez. Remember when he was in jail for committing fraud, grand theft, and money laundering by claiming a mythical back injury that occurred in the department's locker room when nobody else was around to see it and then taught a variety of gun classes while collecting worker's comp, laundering the money through his wife so that it would not look like he was doing the work? That was in 2001 and through a plea bargain that kept his wife from doing more than 1 day's time, Gabe did a year and they had to repay a whopping $112K restitution. He did well by not getting a felony conviction for crimes involving more than a hundred grand, don't you think?

    So yes, I know his work. I also own some of his writing and have followed his career.

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    Member Array ShackleMeNot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I've had over 280 hours of formal handgun training including lot's of FOF training; I see the good of it, and I see the deception and false security in it. To stay with the swimming analogy, you can be the best swimmer in the pool and not be prepared for the reality of the ocean. In fact, being the best swimmer in "simulation", may give you the boldness to bite off more than you can chew.
    The place to train for the ocean is in the pool getting wet and not on dry land which was Gabe's point.

    Force on Force will cause you to "bite off more than you can chew"? Are you serious with that?
    Sounds like something an anti would say about any "tactical training".

    What an odd point to try to make.
    Shay Van Vlymen - Instructor Tactical Response

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostone1413 View Post
    The thing is with FOF you will still be better trained then someone who only shoots targets. How you react in one gunfight by no means dictates how you will act if you are in another gunfight
    A far better point than leaving it at: ... all other trainers are teaching crap and my message is the best. A bit easier to swallow ... no matter who's singing the message.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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    Well, this is turning into a typical "Suarez" discussion and little will be gained by continuing.

    Regarding: "Force on Force will cause you to "bite off more than you can chew"? Are you serious with that?
    Sounds like something an anti would say about any "tactical training".

    What an odd point to try to make."


    Continuing the swimming analogy, it is the trained swimmers that attempt to swim the oceans and rivers and wind up bitting off more than they can chew.

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