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Applegate WW2 Point Shooting Film

4K views 51 replies 11 participants last post by  AzQkr 
#1 ·
This is the film several have mentioned in some of the other point shooting threads.
KILL OR GET KILLED Colonel Rex Applegate Point Shooting Instructional Film --- GCT TV/US Army - YouTube
It was made under Applegate's supervision in 1944
The use of tracers demanded the distances be increased in the film--for them to work properly.
Applegate--and I knew him personally for several years-- favored the point shoulder position over Fairbairn's 3/4 and half hip due to his belief it could easily be taught quickly to large groups of men with limited time/ammo for training.

 
#5 ·
Thanks for posting! What I see here is, what is called " GAP" shooting in the traditional archery circles. The muzzle of the barrel or front sight is used as a reference, hence the full extension of the arm, and not from the hip.

The key , is knowing the correct application from the distance encountered, as the video clearly demonstrates.
I think it's still very sound training.
 
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#6 ·
Slight disagreement--the sights are NOT used in this type of shooting.
The sights are there, and can be used as the distance/time increases, but the sights do not have to be used up close--meaning within 3-7 yards.
Nor does the exact distance has to be known--which would be impossible in a combat situation. What actually happens is that your brain will decide for you which technique--two hand, one hand, point shoulder, 3/4 hip, half hip,etc--should be employed.
 
#15 ·
Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
Anytime you point at something with a finger, barrel of a gun, etc, you are using your instinctive ability to point. Us humans develop what's called proprioceptors, they let us know where our body/arms/legs are in time and space. Humans develop the ability to point instinctively through proprioception. It starts to naturally develop by the time you're 2 months old and continues to be developed throughout ones life. It's the medical explanation for eye/hand coordination, something we all have instinctively and physiologically developed through out our time standing upright and using tools.

Vision is just part and parcel to being able to point, coordination between the two is instinctive, not something learned by the I function of the brain consciously, rather it's subconsciously used as a function as it's first developed and then used in our daily lives.
No argument here. That's how the brain subconsciously makes calculations and uses references to make adjustments. That's why they call it eye-hand coordination.
This in no way takes away from the instinctive shooting techniques.
But most people who believe they are shooting totally instinctive are not.
In this argument I think I'm going to have to go with Glockman.

Brownie if in your statement of "Anytime you point at something with a finger, barrel of a gun, etc, you are using your instinctive ability to point." If that be true then there would be no need to go from half hip to point shoulder as the distance increased. Because the finger point would always be true. At the longer distance you need that eye reference on gun to help calculate the shot. While you are not locking vision and thinking gun/sight the mind is still making adjustments from what it is seeing.

While there is more than these secrets to point shooting I do think these two are very important to mastering the point shooting skill.

1..Finding and knowing/feeling horizontal to ground of the pistol. (Hits can be made from horizontal gun to different parts of the BG's body by raising and lowering gun. Learning to raise and lower hits without moving gun up or down comes with feeling/instinctively....comes with practice.)

2..Finding and bring gun to visual center line of your body and learning to point down that center line. (Visual center line is not on the body but rather in your eyes. No matter which way you are looking your center line is there in what you are seeing in relation to your eyes. Work the gun from that position, no matter which way you are looking, work the gun from that line.)

Just some of my thoughts.
 
#17 ·
In this argument I think I'm going to have to go with Glockman.

Brownie if in your statement of "Anytime you point at something with a finger, barrel of a gun, etc, you are using your instinctive ability to point." If that be true then there would be no need to go from half hip to point shoulder as the distance increased. Because the finger point would always be true. At the longer distance you need that eye reference on gun to help calculate the shot. While you are not locking vision and thinking gun/sight the mind is still making adjustments from what it is seeing.

While there is more than these secrets to point shooting I do think these two are very important to mastering the point shooting skill.

1..Finding and knowing/feeling horizontal to ground of the pistol. (Hits can be made from horizontal gun to different parts of the BG's body by raising and lowering gun. Learning to raise and lower hits without moving gun up or down comes with feeling/instinctively....comes with practice.)

2..Finding and bring gun to visual center line of your body and learning to point down that center line. (Visual center line is not on the body but rather in your eyes. No matter which way you are looking your center line is there in what you are seeing in relation to your eyes. Work the gun from that position, no matter which way you are looking, work the gun from that line.)

Just some of my thoughts.
Bill, the reason that doesn't wash is you have learned to point near line of sight when you either wanted things, scolded a child, etc. You didn't train proprioceptors to do that. If you had been forced to, then the same results would be evident, the body would have developed the proprioception necessary. As well, the barrel becomes the finger at below line of sight, thus the quick transition to some of the threat focused skills.

Bill Jordan could do what you suggested, from the hip. Point the muzzle instinctively from there and hit small objects off a table/ground. Bobby Lamar "Lucky" McDaniel could do the same thing, watched him do so on a duck pin at 100 yrds repeatedly from the draw. Again, those two spent the time to build the proprioceptors that allowed that.

While you are not locking vision and thinking gun/sight the mind is still making adjustments from what it is seeing.

Yes, I agreed with that when I mentioned "Vision is just part and parcel to being able to point, coordination between the two is instinctive,"

1..Finding and knowing/feeling horizontal to ground of the pistol. (Hits can be made from horizontal gun to different parts of the BG's body by raising and lowering gun. Learning to raise and lower hits without moving gun up or down comes with feeling/instinctively....comes with practice.)

2..Finding and bring gun to visual center line of your body and learning to point down that center line. (Visual center line is not on the body but rather in your eyes. No matter which way you are looking your center line is there in what you are seeing in relation to your eyes. Work the gun from that position, no matter which way you are looking, work the gun from that line.)


Two very important aspects when working the skills correctly.
 
#16 ·
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#29 ·
With respect, that sounds like a politicians answer. I don't think that examining the fundamentals of a particular set of skill sets is a wrong focus. And I am at loss as to why this is so difficult to discuss with objective thinking.

If I were to decide to learn a new skill, I want specifics on it. Especially if it is costing me money.
But the entire premise that it's all natural, born with it, and is easy to learn and apply at any distance just doesn't hold water.
If it did, sights would not have ever been introduced.
Now, I am not discounting the value of its application in close quarters, but it is all based on some type of reference, whether visual or body indexing.
 
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#37 ·
The debates have been instructive to me, Matt, but I understand. I've pulled away from them in the past too.

An attempt to summarize my viewpoint follows:

The group of alternative-sighting methods usually lumped under the term "point shooting" is easy to learn and can be learned quickly, as Brownie and Matt both state, because it makes use of natural tendencies and reactions both physiological and mental. Some people come by it naturally or from experience over time. Most of us have to be given some training in order to be aware of the best way to use the ingrained reactions--the flinch reaction and the tendency to square to threat are two of them--to help us shoot better in a reactive gunfight. (If you're fighting proactively, you have time to get on the sights.) It is, after all, a set of skills, and like any other skill-set (shooting a basketball, running a football), it can be improved a lot with proper instruction. Instructors use reference points, reference positions, and indexes to explain, illustrate, and demonstrate the best methods of point-shooting so that the student can get better more quickly and have references they can take home with them and use in their own practice when the class is over. If you continue to practice and train over time, you eventually won't think consciously about what position or index or reference you're using. Like the X-count drawstroke that is taught in parts and then performed in whole, you will get to where you just draw the handgun and shoot the target. That's the point of the exercise after all, isn't it?

One further note: There are a number of alternative-aiming techniques that are not covered under the Fairbairn-Applegate system of point shooting. Studying those techniques will increase your options and give you more flexibility in how you respond to sudden attack.
 
#39 · (Edited)
So guess I'll move forward and post this video from a cheap camera. Do so not to brag but because I am nothing to brag about. I am a 65 year old with bad back, legs and knees, so bear with me.

Hopefully this will show somewhat of what I was posting about. This clip is me doing what I call getting the first good hit drill. Did video this evening and I have not shoot my EDC for over a month or any pistol for that matter.

I am shooting first shots while moving both to left and right from 3,5,7 camera shut off while at 7 yds but I also shot at 10 yds.

Hope I can get the download thingy to work.



Here is a picture of the target after shooting at all distances. Moving to the right at both 7 and 10 yds I shot high to the left and once to the right just over shoulders. At the 10 yd distance I did do a double tap, so you should find 9 holes. Milk glass area on target is what I see as the kill zone on most any body and the other area is outline of a sheet of paper what I call being in the combat accuracy hit zone.

Drawing Design Line Art Grass


In the video I was not working for speed but just letting things flow and you can see my favorite position to shoot from is 3/4 hip.

Hopefully this will help some with my comments.
 
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#42 · (Edited)
OK video is up.

Now you can comment on if I did good or not. This is eye opening to me as this is the first time I've seen myself shooting. There is things I see wrong with the movement/draw as to how I thought I was doing it. Needs work!

But video does show one can get good hits while moving with point shooting.
 
#43 ·
One further note: There are a number of alternative-aiming techniques that are not covered under the Fairbairn-Applegate system of point shooting. Studying those techniques will increase your options and give you more flexibility in how you respond to sudden attack.
I totally agree.
Quite frankly I no longer teach point shooting exactly as was taught by Fairbairn and Applegate.
Quite a few of my police students have told me that while they like the CONCEPT of point shooting they do not like the teaching method of the vertical lift, center line, etc.
Which led me to the conclusion that it is better to teach point shooting as a concept, rather than a technique.
To make a long story short I now teach point shooting in a manner that allows me to combine the concept with the shooting methods that they already practice.
I suppose I should modify my on line lesson plan to reflect this someday.
 
#44 ·
Very cool link. I couldn't help noticing some things in the film - when the soldiers put their guns down to check their targets, where were the guys in the back row coming from? It looks like they were shooting directly behind the guys in front! Also, when the instructor is teaching the proper grip, I noticed that one of the trainees kept putting his finger on the trigger. I know that they cleared their guns, but this seems to be a violation of the rule to not put your finger on the trigger until your are ready to shoot.
 
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