Applegate WW2 Point Shooting Film

Applegate WW2 Point Shooting Film

This is a discussion on Applegate WW2 Point Shooting Film within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is the film several have mentioned in some of the other point shooting threads. KILL OR GET KILLED Colonel Rex Applegate Point Shooting Instructional ...

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    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Applegate WW2 Point Shooting Film

    This is the film several have mentioned in some of the other point shooting threads.
    KILL OR GET KILLED Colonel Rex Applegate Point Shooting Instructional Film --- GCT TV/US Army - YouTube
    It was made under Applegate's supervision in 1944
    The use of tracers demanded the distances be increased in the film--for them to work properly.
    Applegate--and I knew him personally for several years-- favored the point shoulder position over Fairbairn's 3/4 and half hip due to his belief it could easily be taught quickly to large groups of men with limited time/ammo for training.



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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting Matthew
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    VIP Member Array tdave's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting I enjoyed the video.
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    VIP Member Array Ksgunner's Avatar
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    I shot the .45 in competition in the Kansas National Guard for a couple of years. It was all one handed at 25 and 50 yards.
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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting! What I see here is, what is called " GAP" shooting in the traditional archery circles. The muzzle of the barrel or front sight is used as a reference, hence the full extension of the arm, and not from the hip.

    The key , is knowing the correct application from the distance encountered, as the video clearly demonstrates.
    I think it's still very sound training.
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    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Thanks for posting! What I see here is, what is called " GAP" shooting in the traditional archery circles. The muzzle of the barrel or front sight is used as a reference, hence the full extension of the arm, and not from the hip.

    The key , is knowing the correct application from the distance encountered, as the video clearly demonstrates.
    I think it's still very sound training.
    Slight disagreement--the sights are NOT used in this type of shooting.
    The sights are there, and can be used as the distance/time increases, but the sights do not have to be used up close--meaning within 3-7 yards.
    Nor does the exact distance has to be known--which would be impossible in a combat situation. What actually happens is that your brain will decide for you which technique--two hand, one hand, point shoulder, 3/4 hip, half hip,etc--should be employed.

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    Thanks for the link Matt,

    Good stuff
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Temkin View Post
    Slight disagreement--the sights are NOT used in this type of shooting.
    The sights are there, and can be used as the distance/time increases, but the sights do not have to be used up close--meaning within 3-7 yards.
    Nor does the exact distance has to be known--which would be impossible in a combat situation. What actually happens is that your brain will decide for you which technique--two hand, one hand, point shoulder, 3/4 hip, half hip,etc--should be employed.
    I didn't he say he was using the sights. The GAP method does not use sights, but it uses a reference that the brain calculates, ie, the muzzle of a gun barrel, or the end of an arrow at full draw.

    Although when the gun is extended out in front of the body , yes, the sights could be used as a reference, while not actually utilized.

    http://www.stickbow.com/FEATURES/SHOOTING/gap.CFM
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    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I didn't he say he was using the sights. The GAP method does not use sights, but it uses a reference that the brain calculates, ie, the muzzle of a gun barrel, or the end of an arrow at full draw.

    Although when the gun is extended out in front of the body , yes, the sights could be used as a reference, while not actually utilized.

    Stickbow.com - Traditional Archery and Traditional Bowhunting
    That may be true, and I may be wrong on this, but you seem to be making this unduly complicated.
    Point shooting a firearm is simple and requires very little training or practice--be it to learn or to maintain proficiency.
    Instinctive archery is an art and science unto itself, which requires a lot of practice and dedication.
    Which is why it is not fair to compare the two.
    At least IMHO.

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Temkin View Post
    That may be true, and I may be wrong on this, but you seem to be making this unduly complicated.
    Point shooting a firearm is simple and requires very little training or practice--be it to learn or to maintain proficiency.
    Instinctive archery is an art and science unto itself, which requires a lot of practice and dedication.
    Which is why it is not fair to compare the two.
    At least IMHO.
    I am just making an observation, because I do both. There is a correlation there.

    I apologize if you think I'm making something so simple be complicated.
    But I have this really, really bad habit of thinking for myself about such things, and following thru with application of things learned.
    And what you may not understand, is that there is much debate in the archery world over if those who claim to be instinctive, are in reality, GAP shooting without realizing it. It may be a different type of shooting, but the principle is the same where this is concerned.

    Sorry if I don't fall in line with the rest of the believers on every matter, but what I am saying is relevant, whether or not it goes with everything we are supposed to believe.
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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Temkin View Post
    Slight disagreement--the sights are NOT used in this type of shooting.
    The sights are there, and can be used as the distance/time increases, but the sights do not have to be used up close--meaning within 3-7 yards.
    Nor does the exact distance has to be known--which would be impossible in a combat situation. What actually happens is that your brain will decide for you which technique--two hand, one hand, point shoulder, 3/4 hip, half hip,etc--should be employed.

    Yes I am a point shooter and...


    What I find happening in my case is, seeing what's needed to see of the gun to make the hit. It is not something I need to think about it just happens. Rule of thumb for me is around 3 yds I can make those hits shooting half hip. Move that out to about 5-7 yds I move to 3/4 hip. Extend the range out beyond 7 yds and the gun comes up into my line of sight but I still don't see the sights directly. They are in my vision but I am not seeing a sight picture they are just there and I'm getting what I need from them to make my hits. This way of shooting can be increase to some pretty good distance and still make hits on man size target.

    Point shooting works for me because at my age I find it hard to get a good clear sight picture even if I was to tried my best. So even when I do try for a good sight picture and precision shooting I am still point shooting.
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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    Yes I am a point shooter and...


    What I find happening in my case is, seeing what's needed to see of the gun to make the hit. It is not something I need to think about it just happens. Rule of thumb for me is around 3 yds I can make those hits shooting half hip. Move that out to about 5-7 yds I move to 3/4 hip. Extend the range out beyond 7 yds and the gun comes up into my line of sight but I still don't see the sights directly. They are in my vision but I am not seeing a sight picture they are just there and I'm getting what I need from them to make my hits. This way of shooting can be increase to some pretty good distance and still make hits on man size target.

    Point shooting works for me because at my age I find it hard to get a good clear sight picture even if I was to tried my best. So even when I do try for a good sight picture and precision shooting I am still point shooting.
    You nailed it Bill, and in my personal opinion, are doing it the way it should be done. There is a real advantage to instinctive shooting at CQ distance , say 3 to 10 yards. But as the pistol comes up to ones peripheral vision, I think instinctive turns into point shooting. I believe there is a difference. Most people think they are shooting instinctively, when in reality, they are using something for a reference and the brain makes the calculations.

    Which is fine . Because as the distance increases, so it does for the opponent, making it harder to hit you.
    The "referencing" off of the barrel or sights take nothing from speed, but enhance your accuracy, and ability to put rounds on target.
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    You nailed it Bill, and in my personal opinion, are doing it the way it should be done. There is a real advantage to instinctive shooting at CQ distance , say 3 to 10 yards. But as the pistol comes up to ones peripheral vision, I think instinctive turns into point shooting. I believe there is a difference. Most people think they are shooting instinctively, when in reality, they are using something for a reference and the brain makes the calculations.

    Which is fine . Because as the distance increases, so it does for the opponent, making it harder to hit you.
    The "referencing" off of the barrel or sights take nothing from speed, but enhance your accuracy, and ability to put rounds on target.
    Anytime you point at something with a finger, barrel of a gun, etc, you are using your instinctive ability to point. Us humans develop what's called proprioceptors, they let us know where our body/arms/legs are in time and space. Humans develop the ability to point instinctively through proprioception. It starts to naturally develop by the time you're 2 months old and continues to be developed throughout ones life. It's the medical explanation for eye/hand coordination, something we all have instinctively and physiologically developed through out our time standing upright and using tools.

    Vision is just part and parcel to being able to point, coordination between the two is instinctive, not something learned by the I function of the brain consciously, rather it's subconsciously used as a function as it's first developed and then used in our daily lives.
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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Anytime you point at something with a finger, barrel of a gun, etc, you are using your instinctive ability to point. Us humans develop what's called proprioceptors, they let us know where our body/arms/legs are in time and space. Humans develop the ability to point instinctively through proprioception. It starts to naturally develop by the time you're 2 months old and continues to be developed throughout ones life. It's the medical explanation for eye/hand coordination, something we all have instinctively and physiologically developed through out our time standing upright and using tools.

    Vision is just part and parcel to being able to point, coordination between the two is instinctive, not something learned by the I function of the brain consciously, rather it's subconsciously used as a function as it's first developed and then used in our daily lives.
    No argument here. That's how the brain subconsciously makes calculations and uses references to make adjustments. That's why they call it eye-hand coordination.
    This in no way takes away from the instinctive shooting techniques.
    But most people who believe they are shooting totally instinctive are not.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Anytime you point at something with a finger, barrel of a gun, etc, you are using your instinctive ability to point. Us humans develop what's called proprioceptors, they let us know where our body/arms/legs are in time and space. Humans develop the ability to point instinctively through proprioception. It starts to naturally develop by the time you're 2 months old and continues to be developed throughout ones life. It's the medical explanation for eye/hand coordination, something we all have instinctively and physiologically developed through out our time standing upright and using tools.

    Vision is just part and parcel to being able to point, coordination between the two is instinctive, not something learned by the I function of the brain consciously, rather it's subconsciously used as a function as it's first developed and then used in our daily lives.
    No argument here. That's how the brain subconsciously makes calculations and uses references to make adjustments. That's why they call it eye-hand coordination.
    This in no way takes away from the instinctive shooting techniques.
    But most people who believe they are shooting totally instinctive are not.
    In this argument I think I'm going to have to go with Glockman.

    Brownie if in your statement of "Anytime you point at something with a finger, barrel of a gun, etc, you are using your instinctive ability to point." If that be true then there would be no need to go from half hip to point shoulder as the distance increased. Because the finger point would always be true. At the longer distance you need that eye reference on gun to help calculate the shot. While you are not locking vision and thinking gun/sight the mind is still making adjustments from what it is seeing.

    While there is more than these secrets to point shooting I do think these two are very important to mastering the point shooting skill.

    1..Finding and knowing/feeling horizontal to ground of the pistol. (Hits can be made from horizontal gun to different parts of the BG's body by raising and lowering gun. Learning to raise and lower hits without moving gun up or down comes with feeling/instinctively....comes with practice.)

    2..Finding and bring gun to visual center line of your body and learning to point down that center line. (Visual center line is not on the body but rather in your eyes. No matter which way you are looking your center line is there in what you are seeing in relation to your eyes. Work the gun from that position, no matter which way you are looking, work the gun from that line.)

    Just some of my thoughts.
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