Use of lights, hand and weapon-mounted

Use of lights, hand and weapon-mounted

This is a discussion on Use of lights, hand and weapon-mounted within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; A few posts in various places on this forum have expressed the following belief about handheld lights: You're setting yourself up for death if you ...

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Thread: Use of lights, hand and weapon-mounted

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
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    Use of lights, hand and weapon-mounted

    A few posts in various places on this forum have expressed the following belief about handheld lights:

    You're setting yourself up for death if you use one.

    A few other posts in various places on this forum have expressed the following belief about weapon-mounted lights:

    You are setting yourself up for a visit by at least one and possibly all of the Four Horsemen of the Apolocalypse if you mount one on a firearm.

    Ladies and Gentlemen, please, please listen to me about this: There is a way to run a light in a pre-confrontation or confrontational environment that does not have the words "Massive Fail" included anywhere at any time. Training is readily available in the correct and safest techniques and methods for using a light in conjunction with a firearm, or for using a light mounted on a firearm, or both. Instructors are available who can teach these things to you. I beg those of you who want or need to know the best way to fight with a light and a gun to go get the training that will make you able to do that.

    People go in harm's way all the time with lights in their hands and lights on their weapons. Most of them, I dare say the large majority of them, are not killed because they use the light. What they do, you can learn to do. It takes some effort, but it's not really hard to learn. You can make it much more dangerous for your attacker than it is for you to use a light. Please, if you're concerned about this aspect of the fight, go and study it.

    I yield the podium.
    "Oh, bother," said Pooh as he rocked another mag into the 556R...

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    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CR Williams View Post
    A few posts in various places on this forum have expressed the following belief about handheld lights:

    You're setting yourself up for death if you use one.

    A few other posts in various places on this forum have expressed the following belief about weapon-mounted lights:

    You are setting yourself up for a visit by at least one and possibly all of the Four Horsemen of the Apolocalypse if you mount one on a firearm.

    Ladies and Gentlemen, please, please listen to me about this: There is a way to run a light in a pre-confrontation or confrontational environment that does not have the words "Massive Fail" included anywhere at any time. Training is readily available in the correct and safest techniques and methods for using a light in conjunction with a firearm, or for using a light mounted on a firearm, or both. Instructors are available who can teach these things to you. I beg those of you who want or need to know the best way to fight with a light and a gun to go get the training that will make you able to do that.

    People go in harm's way all the time with lights in their hands and lights on their weapons. Most of them, I dare say the large majority of them, are not killed because they use the light. What they do, you can learn to do. It takes some effort, but it's not really hard to learn. You can make it much more dangerous for your attacker than it is for you to use a light. Please, if you're concerned about this aspect of the fight, go and study it.

    I yield the podium.
    Im going to give up finally on this and it will be my post on this subject ever again. IN BOLD, if you are working alone, a one man show with no cover team trying to clear your home or building YES. Im not saying that even a tiny percentage of folks should try to clear their home or a building. They have never done it for real have no idea how to do it and only a ton of conflicting info about what they need to use to do it ranging from good intentioned to commercially driven info. Bluntly put quite a few will wind up dead if the situation is really bad thinking they are doing all the right things right up until they are killed like a lamb in slaughter house.

    Lights have their place, in different situations with cover team behind you etc. A weapon mounted light is worse than useless when working alone using a handgun.

    I and few others here are wasting our breath on this. Everyone believe what they want. They likely will never have to do it anyway.
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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    It's all in the concept of movement and the scheme of operations.

    Simply put, I discourage the WML for those who do not understand it's uses. What do encourage is staying put during a home invasion or burglary and let the " fly find the spider ", and walk into your kill zone.

    But during those occasions where sitting still is not optional, a WML can be an asset if properly used. This is the key ... Proper deployment. Same with a hand held light.
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    A cover team? You mean that every time I've done a building check or other such activity I had a cover team? They were good- I had no idea they were there.

    Lights are important. Using a light correctly is a skill that can save your life. Pretending you'll never need a light is fine- until you do. Chances are you can go through your life without being in that situation if you're the average armed citizen. However by choosing to carry you're already betting the odds are against you. I don't see why you'd feel differently about using a light.

    Personally, I will never be without a light. Take my gun, take my knife (which isn't a fighting tool for me anyway), take my shoes... the surefire stays with me.
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    JMB
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    ...where does the average Joe get proper light training...? This is the crux of the problem as I see it. I don't mean training where techniques are applied as Ghost1958 was possibly referencing, but civilians. I haven't heard of many low light classes myself. I agree that anyone seeking self-defense training should also get training in their use otherwise they might be a liability to the untrained user.

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    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    A cover team? You mean that every time I've done a building check or other such activity I had a cover team? They were good- I had no idea they were there.

    Lights are important. Using a light correctly is a skill that can save your life. Pretending you'll never need a light is fine- until you do. Chances are you can go through your life without being in that situation if you're the average armed citizen. However by choosing to carry you're already betting the odds are against you. I don't see why you'd feel differently about using a light.

    Personally, I will never be without a light. Take my gun, take my knife (which isn't a fighting tool for me anyway), take my shoes... the surefire stays with me.
    Just to clarify, more than one here has been trained to clear a building. Or ever brought anybody out of one. And I never said "a light". I said a wml on a handgun when working alone. I stand by that. Now im done.
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    JMB
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    Just to clarify, more than one here has been trained to clear a building. Or ever brought anybody out of one. And I never said "a light". I said a wml on a handgun when working alone. I stand by that. Now im done.
    I've never used a pistol mounted light...so why do you hold this opinion?

    Thanks

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    LOL ... I think were all mostly on the same page...or maybe lny on the next page. Those members who do have experience in such matters have been trained, and experienced in a fer variations of similar technique. Mostly the inexperienced refer to specific technique, and schools of training based on imaginary premis/home/room clearing. If you have three cops on the scene... you have three different ways of doing something. The mark of the professional is the willingness to learn something new. The mark of an experienced professional is he'll do what got him through the las 20 or so years.

    Every premis clearing/search/location secure is different. Once again there is no one size fits all. The ability to think on your feet, have the tools you need, and make your decisions based on experience and reality. Thats what I've pretty much found to be the soloution to most of these problems. No matter what weapons, flashlights, gun lights, lazers you have... NOTHING beats a dog.

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    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMB View Post
    I've never used a pistol mounted light...so why do you hold this opinion?

    Thanks
    Since im being asked and I put it all in another thread on this same thing Ill make this short as possible. And realize im talking mostly about a handgun though it applies in areas to a long gun also.

    Handheld, you can use it out to your side little low or little high or just out, can use it other ways also, that you cant do with a WML, to many to go into. BG cant see you he will shoot at the light. Light is out to your side etc less likely to get hit. A lot less likely. And there isnt anything you can do against a BG with a WML that you cant do the same with a hand held, except hold your pistol like you hold it at a range in a full two handed grip.

    Light flicked, flashed, strobed, etc in the dark being held in front of you, low or high you catch incoming aimed at the spot BG sees the light flick, flash or strobe or whatever.


    Unless you shoot with your handgun held out to your side at arms length, over your head gangsta style or from ankle level the incoming at the light is by default coming at your COM or close to it. Low ready its coming at your junk and your thighs.

    Hope that is enough to be clear.
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    JMB
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    Since im being asked and I put it all in another thread on this same thing Ill make this short as possible. And realize im talking mostly about a handgun though it applies in areas to a long gun also.

    Handheld, you can use it out to your side little low or little high or just out, can use it other ways also, that you cant do with a WML, to many to go into. BG cant see you he will shoot at the light. Light is out to your side etc less likely to get hit. A lot less likely. And there isnt anything you can do against a BG with a WML that you cant do the same with a hand held, except hold your pistol like you hold it at a range in a full two handed grip.

    Light flicked, flashed, strobed, etc in the dark being held in front of you, low or high you catch incoming aimed at the spot BG sees the light flick, flash or strobe or whatever.


    Unless you shoot with your handgun held out to your side at arms length, over your head gangsta style or from ankle level the incoming at the light is by default coming at your COM or close to it. Low ready its coming at your junk and your thighs.

    Hope that is enough to be clear.
    Actually it was pretty confusing. If you could provide a link to the other thread on the subject, I would like to read it.

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    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMB View Post
    Actually it was pretty confusing. If you could provide a link to the other thread on the subject, I would like to read it.
    I wish I could but when it comes to linking and photos etc Im a klutz.
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    VIP Member Array frankmako's Avatar
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    i put a light on my duty gun when we do a raid/warrant no matter if it is day or night. i even got a light on my duty shot gun and ar. i have found a weapon mounted light works well in the day time too. stops the bad guy in their tracks. for night time you should have a light, a good light. not a cheap low power light. at home i use the same setup as work. it is action vr reaction when i comes to a light.
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    Senior Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMB View Post
    ...where does the average Joe get proper light training...? This is the crux of the problem as I see it. I don't mean training where techniques are applied as Ghost1958 was possibly referencing, but civilians. I haven't heard of many low light classes myself. I agree that anyone seeking self-defense training should also get training in their use otherwise they might be a liability to the untrained user.
    I know that Suarez International includes modules on use of lights starting at their intermediate-course level, and their CQB: Fighting In Buildings course works you through the use of lights all the way through. I'm sure there are others that provide similar course instruction.
    "Oh, bother," said Pooh as he rocked another mag into the 556R...

    www.inshadowinlight.com

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    Senior Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
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    Let me make one thing clear: Indoor work is not something that should be done by, I would say, most of us here unless there is over-riding necessity to move. If you don't have to move and there's a bad guy somewhere, set yourself to wait and do just that. Ambushes are GOOD things.

    But life is not always fair that way, and sometimes we have to get up and go forward, with or without lights. For that, to give yourself the best chance of doing it without injury or death, you can learn how. You can reduce the chances of what Ghost seems to think is a sure thing. No guarantees, I hope you know that. Safety is relative, especially in this kind of combat environment. Clearing a room, clearing a building, is not an adventure, it's a job. But you can still move your probabilities quite a bit higher and push the bad guy's quite a bit lower with the proper instruction.

    So please, go and get that.
    "Oh, bother," said Pooh as he rocked another mag into the 556R...

    www.inshadowinlight.com

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Ok, some may laugh at this, but at my house, in the past, as a family fun event, we have had a "tactical night".

    This is a variation of hide n seek, played in complete darkness. Everyone gets a pair of safety glasses and an air soft gun. The bad guy is "it", sand must go looking for you. Of course , the role could be reversed and the "it" person could be the good guy, depending on how you want to look a at it. It's your option to use a light or not while searching. But you stay " it" until you hit someone you have found without getting hit yourself.
    It's a very eye opening experience, filled with tension and stress , but fun! It hurts to get hit, but gives you the desire to make sure you don't.
    I have found that not only are the girls sneaky, but they can shoot well.
    And also , it's much better to lay still and wait !
    But the light can be an asset, or it can be magnet for pellets, depending on how it's used.
    But it is a great learning experience that educates the entire family while having a lot of fun.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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