The Gunsite Blog

This is a discussion on The Gunsite Blog within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This should be considered a "blog" following my experience through Gunsite 's 250 Level Pistol Course. This will also include their Arizona CWP course which ...

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    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    Exclamation The Gunsite Blog

    This should be considered a "blog" following my experience through Gunsite's 250 Level Pistol Course. This will also include their Arizona CWP course which is an additional $100.

    I will be attending their course this Friday through next Tuesday (December 15th - 19th, 2006) in a special program offered through my college, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical U. I was briefly requested to give some insight into what they offer in their course. I will take this one step further. What I hope to accomplish with this thread is a simple guide as "what to expect" going through their course.

    I won't be offering any tips that they give or any insight as how to score "Expert" with their team. As I said, I just want to provide this community with a brief as to what a participant will see, day-by-day. Do not expect me to give you a "How-To" as far as technique goes. I will leave this to the professionals - which I am not.

    Here is a little reference to myself and my background experience with shooting going into this weekend. This should provide a little reference to anyone else considering attending this course:
    I am 25 years old. I have been carrying for three years. I have put roughly 13-14,000 rounds through my Hk USP .40 Compact in that time (yes I know that is A LOT). I have attended a 150-Level Course in California last February through a company called "Force Protection Services International." I graduated "with honors."

    As I said before, I will not be giving away any secrets or "How-To's" with their course. This should just be considered a reference for any shooter seriously looking into doing their 250-Level Course. I will do any follow-ups needed - I live down the street from them and their 350 and 400-Level courses sound very inviting. Especially their rifle offerings....

    This is what is reccomended to start the course:
    -1000+ rounds of ammo per caliber ("small" caliber will not be used. 9mm is the smallest, *I believe*. Call them for further information @ 1-928-636-4565) - I spent $160 locally.
    -A tactical light (Surefire highly reccomended) - I have a Surefire G2.
    -A holster you are comfortable with. Any kinds of accessories (including retention belts with snaps) will be subject to scrutiny. A Fobus-type holster is reccomended. What really matters is your personal comfort level with them. CCW IWB & OWB holsters should be okay. I will ask and report back. - I will be using an Uncle Mikes Size 12 el-cheapo holster.
    -4-5 Magazines - I will start this course with four 10-round mags.
    -A double-mag pouch (or two single mags) that fits your belt on your weak side. - I have a double-mag Fobus.

    I have all of the equipment listed. I will list anything further that I will need to purchase throughout the week.

    Moderaters:
    If you feel this should fit into "CCW & Tactical Training" feel free to move it. However, I believe it to be more relevent here due to the impending questions following my experience there. If this is moved, please PM me so I don't lose it someplace. haha

    If anyone has been through this course and has any suggestions, I am never above taking some advice. I'll also answer any questions that people have as far as cost or anything else goes.
    Last edited by SixBravo; December 13th, 2006 at 01:55 PM.
    The Gunsite Blog
    ITFT / Quick Kill Review
    "It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008

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    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Good luck!

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    JT
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixBravo View Post
    I have done two years doing Force-on-Force firearms fighting at the FBI Academy in Quantico, VA. Do NOT PM me or respond with a request for info about the Academy or any kinds of information surrounding it. You will be ignored. Mods: Please delete them.
    A little friendly advice…

    Do you think you might have been able to word that a little nicer? To me that was a turn off to the whole thread. And while I’m not questioning your experience, it made you sound like some sort of arm chair commando or Internet warrior, instead of the real thing.
    Blessed be the Lord my rock who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1

    Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    ....Good point, JT. It was late and I couldn't sleep when I wrote that. Sorry about that. I just went ahead and deleted that whole area. While its relevent, no real way to be nice about that kind of stuff.
    The Gunsite Blog
    ITFT / Quick Kill Review
    "It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008

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    JT
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    I understand. I’ve been known to come across in a way I didn’t intend more often than I care to admit.
    Blessed be the Lord my rock who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1

    Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    Senior Member Array glock21guy's Avatar
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    I completed the 250 back in Oct. Take a camel pack or equivalent, if you have climbers chalk bag or some sort of dump bag of loose rounds. That way you can be loading mags as the other shooters are one the line. This gives you the ability to watch them. Or you can leave it at the back of the range, just dump 100 or so in, and you are good to go.

    I took my G2, and found I like the G2Z better. The Z2 is fine but the bulb will have a better chance of breaking in the metal case vs. the polymer body.

    You probably have a place to stay at this point. If you go back I would recommended the Little Thumb Butte B&B. It ads that much more to the over all experience, and Ann is a great host.

    It was the best money I have spent on training. So much so I am going back for the 350 next year.

    Go, and have fun.
    Last edited by glock21guy; December 13th, 2006 at 07:50 PM.
    Aaron

    If you don't protect your self, who will?

  8. #7
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    Glock-

    I actually live about 20 minutes from Gunsite. But the chalk bag is an awesome idea!!! I'm definitely going to use that. I do have a Camelback that I was planning on using.

    If anyone is ever in town for any reason, please contact me. More than happy to show someone around the town.
    The Gunsite Blog
    ITFT / Quick Kill Review
    "It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008

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    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    Today went amazing and I got a lot of good notes for you guys. But I'm pretty swamped with practice and homework from them so I'll have to write everything up tomorrow evening.

    So far I'm the best shot in the class. If I can keep this up for 4 more days..... ::Scoff:: I'm exhausted right now. I don't know... lol
    The Gunsite Blog
    ITFT / Quick Kill Review
    "It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008

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    Senior Member Array XD in SC's Avatar
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    Sean
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    "You may know where you are. God may know where you are. If you don't tell your dispatcher where you are, you'd better be on speaking terms with God!"

  11. #10
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    What Have I Done?!?!?

    It is the end of Day Two. I am mentally and physically exhausted. My legs hurt, I can't feel my hands, and I nearly fell asleep during the classroom instruction at the end of the day.

    Needless to say, I am having the time of my life. I am already reconsidering how and what I carry. I know when I saw all those testimonials about how "Gunsite changed my life" and all that jazz.... I kept thinking "Nahhh. I've shot plent in my life. I think about self-defense all the time." It's 18 hours into the program, and I am buying everything I heard. Lock, stock, and saddle. Even from experienced carriers, I'd believe it all.

    Day One:
    Let me make one thing perfectly clear: IF YOU RENT TRANSPORTATION TO GUNSITE - GET A TRUCK OR MAKE SURE YOU HAVE INSURANCE ON THE CAR!!!! The road out to it is all washboard, potholes, and just completely horrible on a car. But... moving forward....

    I arrived at Gunsite at about 0730. The first half hour of your day is devoted to doing paperwork. I must have signed eight or nine different documents where I had to swear to God, the law, my dogs, and their hairy mothers that I would not sue Gunsite for shooting myself. Or if anyone else shoots me. Rut-Roh.

    Splayed out underneath your various required lawyer-like materials, are a couple of books and readables. They are a small "Jurors Handbook" that explains the importance of the Constitution, a 155-page textbook (I'll omit the name - no cheaters!!! hehe), and a spiral-bound booklet that outlines the various pistoleering courses and what will be required of you for the courses.

    Our three instructors walk in and introduce themselves to the 20-or-so of us. Our rangemaster, Larry, and course leader is a guy who spent his whole 40 year career with Arizona DPS doing SWAT, Warrants, etc. He is clearly the Honcho. Another instructor, Kirk, is a gentleman who spent 23 of his 24 years in the Navy as a SEAL Operator. He retired in 1994. Imagine what he has seen... his stories are REALLY interesting!!!! Another instructor, Scott, flew AH-1 Cobras in the Army for quite a few years. Lots of combat time. He now also teaches Helo Pilots @ Embry-Riddle.

    We spend the first 2 or so hours of our wellspent cash listening to a lecture. This sounds boring, but covers EVERYTHING neccesary - beginning shooters to advanced guys.
    This lecture covered:
    -Gun Handling @ Gunsite
    -Liability and Travel
    -Local Law Enforcement's relationship with shooters and Gunsite
    -Arizona Carry Laws
    -Gunsmitthy
    -Grading and Evaluation System
    -Class Schedule
    -Hydration
    -Performance Objectives
    -Range Safety
    -Lead Contamination
    The lecture then moved to the history of the modern technique.

    Those few hours sound exceedingly boring, but the insight these guys have makes it thoroughly intruiging. The wealth of knowledge these gentlemen pass on.... its just not something you could put a price on (though they do, at over $1200 a person haha).

    We then pack our shooting supplies up and head out back to the ranges at 1000 or so.

    The first few hours of drill cover basics: trigger control, dry firing, single shots, etc. They really use this time to allow beginners to get comfortable around the weapons they are using AND to evaluate the experienced shooters.

    We broke for lunch at about a quarter to noon and had to be back at the range @ 1300. They will tell you that you do not have time to leave and get lunch. However, if you have a truck for that damnedfangle "gravel" driveway they have, you can make it to McDonalds or Sonic in Chino Valley and back way before 1300 (round trip is about 45-55 minutes in a truck). BUT!!! The food they offer is really not bad!!! The meals they offer are quite tastey and are complete. Good stuff.

    The second half of Day One is dedicated, more or less, to presentation (read: the "Draw"). I would STRONGLY ADVISE that you not try and practice presentation before you get there unless you have prior AND RECENT formal firearms instruction on it.... Anyhow, I digress.. They also teach you their own special reloading techniques and then you move into various other shoots (slow doubles, etc). We were out there until about 3:15.

    I wanted more range time!!! I wasn't finished!

    We moved back up into the classroom. The instructors discussed Negligent Discharges and dry firing. They passed out plastic rounds to place in our chambers for the practice. We were then formally dismissed. Some of us stuck around for a damned funny bull session with the instructors. Its worth the time to hang around afterwards. They will help you in any way they possibly can as long as you are willing to let them. Heed my advise on that, too. The best thing you can do before this course is resigning yourself to that fact that they will re-teach you how to shoot... unless something works for you. They are not above letting you do your own thing - but some old habits will have to go.. to be replaced with new ones!

    Rounds Expended Today: ~200


    Day Two:
    Our marching orders upon leaving last night were to meet at the range at 0800 and be ready to put lead downrange from the get-go. I got there just in time to get my mags loaded-up and my carry rounds swapped-out. I should also mention I had a horrible cramp in my left leg that left me near dabilitated by the end of the afternoon.

    The morning was spent on the introduction of a tactical reload, various ways to clear jams, and a really cool competitive shootout!!! By lunch, the class was a lean, mean group of souls. We were shooting faster, presenting smoother, and looking very angry. The targets are set-up on a compressed-air powered flip system that will panel the targets out for a preset amount of time. We had moved into the territory of 5-7 second shoots on the targets and expected to make kill shots on all of them.

    By the afternoon, you are proficient at things you never-EVER expected you could do and in times that you would not believe if I told you.

    The range-time adjourned at around 3:30. We went back to the classroom for a discussion on ballistics and how it matters.

    Personally, I did awful. By the end of the day, my leg was near death and I couldn't concentrate. I just wanted to sit down and take a nap. haha This was just me, though. Everyone else was cleaning house!!! I'm glad I was so humble about doing well on Day One!! I'd be catching Hell if I hadn't been. However, despite all of this... Day Two is an EXTREME confidence builder. As a person who believes in self-defense, you will believe in YOURSELF more than you thought possible. Gunsite will take you to new heights on Day Two.

    I went-on and am taking the CCW class that they offer in conjunction with the 250 Pistol. The instructor is very cool and has some excellent insight into carrying. He is very no-frills and no-BS. I thoroughly enjoy that class. It is broken-up into two days, with your shooting evaluation is not done on the range...... BUT IN A KILLHOUSE. You fail the course if you kill an innocent in the house. I'm unbelievably excited.

    That's all for now, though. I need to goto bed. I have a very early morning.

    Rounds Expended Today: ~300

    I may never be able to stop shooting. Everywhere I look right now, I can see my sights on things I look at.

    Good doggy.

    What have I done to myself?!!?
    The Gunsite Blog
    ITFT / Quick Kill Review
    "It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008

  12. #11
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    My Leg Sucks

    Day Three:

    It turns out the cramp in my leg was an old snowboarding injury from about 8 years ago. I tore something in my knee and it prevents me from putting too much pressure on it quickly.

    The day begins again at 0800 in the classroom. The lecture ran until just after 1015. It was two hours of the Combat Mindset. Some of what I heard, I have seen explained here - but never at the same depth or length which they went to. Their examples are amazing as well as their other angles to look at. It is truely a treat to have these guys with all of their combined experience.

    At 1015 we broke and went to the range. We did some quick warmup drills to get the blood flowing because it was a little chilly this morning. After that, they introduced us to 4 or 5 different positions to shoot from. I will suffice to say that the first one involved us falling to our knees rather quicky.

    A large rock got me right in the cartiledge on my knee where I injured it years ago. I managed to keep the gun downrange amid curses. I hate my leg at this point in my life. So I popped a few asprin and watched the rest of our team do the drill whilst waiting for it to kick in.

    It didn't until lunch when I got some food in my body. I returned from lunch ready to whoop some serious [donkey]!!!!! We immediately jumped into some quick draw drills and hammers. During an execution of one of our new drills that required a turn, I twisted said knee very hard. I was so infuriated, no kidding, I almost started to cry out of sheer anger. Especially when I found out the next item on the list - which was something I had been looking forward to learning for MONTHS.

    Just before we broke for the classroom again, we did a few more drills, but way faster. I could DO THESE. I was getting happy again. haha Just imagine a target flash in front of your eyes for less than a few seconds and the immense pride of seeing multiple holes in it as it spins back away. Two weeks ago, I would have laughed at the idea of me doing it.

    Getting back to the classroom at 3 or so, there was an hour-long discussion about carrying firearms and what it truely entails. The responsibility, more about the mindset, a new way to look at the classic "sheepdog" mentality, and a few other points.

    At the end of class, the announced our main event for tomorrow:

    The Killhouse and Hostage Creekbed.

    We briefly saw the Killhouse. I would say that it is roughly 1300 square feet, with about a dozen individual rooms that may or may not be divided off by hallways. It will be amazing.

    Right now, my busted knee is covered with ice and I've got some more ibuprofen in me. It already feels better.

    Rounds Expended Today: ~80
    Average Number of Rounds by Participants: ~250

    PS: I completed the CHP class tonight. Easy. Good discussion with the teacher. The test was a simple 20 question exam. I have not taken a CHP class anywhere else so I have no comparisons, however our instructor knew a LOT about the laws and how they were applied (turns out he's a former LEO,s too).
    The Gunsite Blog
    ITFT / Quick Kill Review
    "It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008

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    Member Array levi333's Avatar
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    Very interesting read. I look forward to its finale.

  14. #13
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    Unreal

    Day Four:

    For those that just want to hear about the Killhouse and Wash, skip ahead to it.

    This morning began out at the range at 0800. We did our standard warmup drills from 3, 7, 10, 15, and 25 yards. This took about 8 or 9 minutes tops. Immeadiately after, members of our team were trucked-off and taken to the killhouse and wash. Chance would have it that I would be the last one through the house.... but that's later.

    We spent the morning getting back to basics. Our team had been showing a lot of fatigue and strain. While initially we had begun to become extremely confident, only one or two of us could actually come close to the goals set by Gunsite. This had disheartened a few people and it was beginning to show. So, like I said, we went back to basics: Controlled pairs, practicing from different distances at unlimited times, etc. This helped-out immensely. I won't say I was above it, either. I was getting frustrated myself. This was a real morale booster.

    Then myself and four others were called away for the "Sims." These may be done in different orders, but this is how I did them...

    The Wash:
    You arrive at a small cinderblock shelter. You hear rapid gunfire not too far off to the left. It ceases. Followed some time later by more, in random intervals. There may or may not be other team members in the shelter waiting nervously with you. When your turn finally comes, you proceed down into a wash (for those that don't know - a "wash" is a creekbed with high, steep walls) and some steps. The instructor waits. It is now, that it is explained to you that today is only a "test" and tomorrow will be the real thing.

    "WHAT?!?!"

    "All the targets you encounter can be considered hostile. This is just an exercise to teach you to think tactically. Work the problem out in your mind and execute a plan. Don't be afraid to back-up and restart a section with a new plan. Take your time. Tomorrow counts, not today. I'll be right behind you to answer any questions. Any questions right now? No? Okay. Don't forget to breathe. Draw your weapon, make ready, and proceed at the low ready when you are prepared."

    I was doing okay and all psyched-up for this until I hear "draw your weapon." I'm pretty sure my heart hit the ground and shattered into a million pieces - but only after passing the butterflies fluttering around the ball of ice in my stomach.

    Turn, face down the 10-foot wide wash, and draw. Rack the slide. Press check. Decock. Scan the area. Don't cross your legs. Move slow. Shoot deliberately. Front sight press. Don't slap the trigger! This is it! Are you ready?! Do you have enough ammo?!! HOW MANY TARGETS?!?!?! Wait, I'm forgetting something. Oh yeah:

    Breathe.

    I take my first step forward. Then another... Wait.. What is that on the other side of that little ridge... Is that a face? Gun up!!! Press the trigger. I feel the gun jump. I even see it. I don't hear it. I don't even hear the target get hit.

    "Hit!!! Clear right!! Keep moving!!!"

    After-Action Report: That was probably the biggest adrenaline rush I have ever had. I've raced cars for 10 years, played paintball with US Rangers, "shot" at government agents in mock gunfights, and done quite a bit which has gotten the juices flowing. But NOTHING matched the rush of being put in a "combat" situation like that. Granted, these targets didn't shoot back, but the situation is unique because all of your past week's training is to be utilized in these sims. This is where a big chunk of your grade comes from.

    I found at different times I had to keep reminding myself to breathe. I also experienced something which is appearently very common - my muscles damned-near froze at the bicep. In two years of playing around with simunitions, I had NEVER experienced that. Weird.

    My heart rate has climbed just really thinking about it.


    The Killhouse:
    It's a giant cinderblock house. It has rooms. You have to perform tactical entries - through doors. Ever played the video game "Rainbow Six?" Yeah it's a lot like that. The instructor calls me up and lays it out:

    "Here's the situation: You are turning onto your girlfriend's street to pick her up for a nice dinner. She calls you up and starts yelling that strange people are coming over the back fence. You hear a window break in the background. She screams and drops the phone. All you hear is scuffling as you pull up in front of her house. You get out of your car and run up to the door and hear her scream again."

    I'm sure my eyes looked like saucers. I know my heart did the same dropping maneuver it had oh-so-successfully pulled-off before.

    "Draw your weapon and make ready!!! Proceed at your own pace from the low ready position. Go!"

    [Many, many, many explecitives deleted that crossed my mind in an instant.]

    Pie the first corner. There's a door in front of you. First problem. How do you deal with it. **** it! Kick it open! That's my girlfriend they're assualting!!! HOW DARE THEY?!?!?!

    Door flies open. Target! Gun in the hand!!! Hk up! Sights on the punks chest!!!!!!

    "Drop the ****ing gun, NOW!!! I WILL KILL YOU!!!"

    [Instructor] "Eat me!"

    Again... I feel the gun move. Hell, I can see it. I even watch three holes appear on the target. One in the target's left lung, another towards the liver, and another in the left eye.

    No sound.

    God, that's annoying.

    Keep moving!


    After Action Report:
    The instructors tell you that when you clear the funhouse, you will feel one of two ways about it. Either you will never, ever, EVER, want to do it again. Orrrrrrrr..... You will want to clean that house every single day for the rest of your life.

    I am of the latter. Forgive my enthusiasm, but that was SO COOL!!!!!!!! It was so awesome, that I cannot go into it much more than to tell you "Oh.... my....!!!!!!!!!!" Only those who have been through the course or who have done this before as part of their job or otherwise will really understand what I mean.

    My apologies if what I just said made absolutely zero sense.


    Anyhow, after this, we broke for lunch. I didn't get to eat. I had to get fingerprinted for the CHP. As well, I spent all the other time discussing the sims with the instructors and other team members. Everyone was just chatty as Hell.

    The afternoon was much of a return to basics from other directions. We did repeated drills in preperation for tomorrow. I really can't say too much about it because after the sims, it really wasn't much to talk about. The mood pretty much dropped-off as well because, despite numerous warnings about it, it snowed on and off during the afternoon. No one, save myself and two others, had any cold weather gear.

    We returned some hours later for some awesome night shooting. The instructors discussed tactics for fighting at night, different ways to hold the flashlight, and just about everything in between. The "series fire" was REALLY awesome.


    Tomorrow: The Final Exam and Graduation

    PS: Also an interesting experiment and some really surprising (and undoubtedly controversial) happenings with different firearms.
    The Gunsite Blog
    ITFT / Quick Kill Review
    "It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008

  15. #14
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    Just got home from the last day. I'll have to finish this blog up tomorrow afternoon when I have more time. I'm gonna buy some of my classmates a few beers.

    We all deserve them.

    You all will have details tomorrow. Today was even better than yesterday.
    The Gunsite Blog
    ITFT / Quick Kill Review
    "It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008

  16. #15
    Senior Member Array XD in SC's Avatar
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    Wow this s great! I wanna play, ummm train too!!!!
    Sean
    XD 9SC | XD 45ACP Service | XD 45ACP Compact |Borealis
    "You may know where you are. God may know where you are. If you don't tell your dispatcher where you are, you'd better be on speaking terms with God!"

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